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Old 09-01-2006, 03:05 PM   #151
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


And I'm tired of some of your arguments. If you keep putting up a fight, you're going to have to get used to these arguments. Some people believe in human rights.

And the whole point is that people do make mistakes. If they were guilty, they suffer life in prison with the same exact scenario everyday, nothing to look forward to, no choices. A loss of freedom. And if they're found innocent, we let them go.

Nothing is 100%, and you act like it is, and then say you don't feel guilty about people who had to deal with that? I don't understand it.
When a serial killer murders 12 people is that a mistake??

A person goes into a conviniance store robs the place and then decides to kill the clerk so there are no witnesses is that a mistake?
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:12 PM   #152
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Originally posted by Justin24


When a serial killer murders 12 people is that a mistake??

A person goes into a conviniance store robs the place and then decides to kill the clerk so there are no witnesses is that a mistake?
If you get the wrong person.

But are crimes always that simple? Rarely, if ever. Leads to more mistakes.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:12 PM   #153
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Originally posted by Justin24
So if nothing is 100% accurate then why not let Manson go? Richard Ramirez? Hell to bad we killed Gacy cause nothing is 100% accurate
You've asked this before, look at my answer back then...it hasn't changed.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:15 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24




A person goes into a conviniance store robs the place and then decides to kill the clerk so there are no witnesses is that a mistake?
And what if he's framed? We can play the what if game all night, the fact is, it's not an absolute system, therefore we can't have absolute punishment. Simple as that.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:15 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
So if nothing is 100% accurate then why not let Manson go? Richard Ramirez? Hell to bad we killed Gacy cause nothing is 100% accurate
You don't "let them go". Life without the possibility of parole is par for the course when it comes to sentencing first degree murders.

The problem with assuming 100% accuracy is that "beyond a reasonable doubt" is the highest level of proof required for criminal convictions. 100% accuracy cannot be achieved, and is not even factored into the picture when it comes to conviction and sentencing. If you're comfortable sentencing someone to death as long as there's 100% accuracy, then find me a courtroom where this actually occurs, where the gray area between reasonable doubt and 100% accuracy is eliminated...
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:19 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


It's not an absolute system,
Murder is though.

And let's say if someone is framed but you feel he is guilty. And he spends the rest of his/her life in prison then there is no difference, just that he/she dies a very slow death by age.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:19 PM   #157
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I've really enjoyed reading the comments on this thread.

I've got commend the families of murder victims who then push for Life without Parole for those found guilty as an alternative to the death penalty.

If anyone murdered my son I think my own initial (maybe irrational) reaction would be for revenge. I wouldn't care about the consequences so don't think the Dealth Penalty provides any additional degree of deterrent over a Life Sentence.

I'm also quite nervous about the Victims family having a say about what the punishment for those found guilty should be. This should be left to those free of any bias. They don't have any say in any other part of the court-case process.

I don't really buy in to this God-Is-Judge idea. I'm not a believer in any way which is probably why. But at least everyone agrees that Society exists so 'judging-ourselves' is probably the best option we've got.

So I do I agree or disagree with the Death Penalty? Well you are either INNOCENT or GUILTY (not found innocent or guilty, but 'actually' guilty, And from the outcome you can either be FREED, get LIFE SENTENCE or get DEATH PENALTY. So there are 6 possible outcomes.

1. Innocent and Freed
2. Guilty and Life Sentence
3. Guilty and Death
4. Guilty and Freed
5. Innocent and Death
6. Innocent and Life Sentence

(1) Personally I really happy if they are innocent and freed!
(2/3) If there are guilty I don't really care what happens to this scum.
(4) Guilty and freed I'm uncomfortable about...what happens if they reoffend? But this a question about the effectiveness of the jury process and not whether you in favour or not of the death penalty.
(5)Innocent and Death. A nightmare outcome. An innocent person dying as a result of the death penalty is equally as bad as an innocent person dying as a result of a crime.
(6) Innocent and Life Sentence. So the jury get it wrong but at least they could be released at a later time.

So for me it's a question of balancing the risk of getting it wrong against being seen to punish the crime. Both Life and Death sentences are worthy punishment. But only by using the the life sentence exlusively do you give yourself the option of reversing an incorrect guilty verdict.

I'm against the death penalty for that reason.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:22 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24


Murder is though.

And let's say if someone is framed but you feel he is guilty. And he spends the rest of his/her life in prison then there is no difference, just that he/she dies a very slow death by age.
This is a very unfortunate side of the fallable system we work with, but wouldn't sending an innocent man to death be worse. At least this innocent man got to keep contact with his family.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:23 PM   #159
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Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime. You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:26 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime. You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.
Don't kid yourself, it's revenge. Look at everyone who is for the death penalty in here, each person added an emotional aspect to their reasoning. It's revenge.

And no, a life sentence is not execution.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:30 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
So if nothing is 100% accurate then why not let Manson go? Richard Ramirez? Hell to bad we killed Gacy cause nothing is 100% accurate

Another problem Justin. It's always all or nothing with you. We say we're against the death penalty, and so you say we want to release mass murderers. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE. This is why people have problems with discussing things with you: you twist their words to suit your point.

There are degrees of meaning and belief. Just because I think the death penalty is no way for a civilized nation to deal with its criminals, doesn't mean I think we should "let Manson go."
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:30 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime.
Getting it wrong should also be a most severe crime. I'd prefer to avoid the possibility.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:34 PM   #163
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Originally posted by martha



Another problem Justin. It's always all or nothing with you. We say we're against the death penalty, and so you say we want to release mass murderers. NO ONE HAS EVER SAID THAT HERE. This is why people have problems with discussing things with you: you twist their words to suit your point.

There are degrees of meaning and belief. Just because I think the death penalty is no way for a civilized nation to deal with its criminals, doesn't mean I think we should "let Manson go."
So a civilized nation should be like. Oh you killed some one shame on you now you can sit in this cell forever. Just to let you know some of the luxarys while your here include. a mess hall to eat. A yard and gym to work out, a library, congregation area for you to watch TV. If your feeling sick, we have 24 hr medical attention for you. Your cost nothing. Cost to the people outside millions. Enjoy.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:35 PM   #164
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Justin, I'm still curious as to how you would reconcile "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" with "100% accuracy and fact". Would you change the level of proof required for criminal convictions? Would you completely restructure the justice system as we know it?

There's more to it than someone murdering someone else and whether or not s/he deserves to die.

Personally, I prefer a justice system that focuses on the rights of individuals in general, and not on extreme punitive sentences for mass murders.
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:36 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
Execution is not revenge it's punishment for the most severe crime. You judge some one to a life sentence is still a form of execution.


Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24 [B[Why shouldn't he suffer? Like he made a family or families suffer? He/she made his/her victims suffer. [B]

Which is it? Revenge or punishment?
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