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Old 09-01-2006, 12:09 PM   #136
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no, they are simply stepping out of the way and letting nature take it's course.

i have been through this issue extensively with my father, a physician, and he draws a big line between removing a feeding tube and actually injecting someone with a tranquilizer strong enough to stop someone's heart.
I agree with you 100%.
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Old 09-01-2006, 12:13 PM   #137
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If we were letting nature take its course a good percentage of terminal patients would not be receiving anyting but palliative care.

In end-of life cases, where you are pumped so full of morphine that you are neither awake nor able to recognize your family anymore, is this letting nature take its course? And what is the difference between administering a dosage of morphine to preserve your dying carcass for 2 more weeks and administering a slightly higher dose for you to die that moment? There are plenty of people who do not want to live out their last days in that sort of agony. I respect their views.

ETA: Irvine, I agreed with you at one point. I shared your views and 80s views as well. That was before I took care of a terminal case. My views have since then changed 180 degrees. It used to be a matter of philosophy to me, but I see end-of life decisions to be a personal matter and after watching first hand what it is like to be dying for a long time in the worst possible of ways, I no longer agree with you. It's one of those few things that over the course of my lifetime I've changed my mind on completely.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:22 PM   #138
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Hey anitram, did you see this week in BC where a 76-yr old man shot his 80 yr old wife in the hospital and then shot himself. No details as to the motive yet. Apparently, the woman was set to be placed in a long-term care facility, the couple was described as a loving and caring. My thinking is that they discussed this end of life issue and it's possible that the solution was killing the spouse and themselves instead of being separated and one or the other dying a slow death. It would be extreme but last year an elderly couple who were living together in a seniors home were separated and the wife died away from her husband. This happened in BC too. He died soon after, of a broken heart IMO, I do think that loving couples who have spent decades together are linked and their life force is connected by their love for one another. I see it so many times when one spouse passes, the other suffers so much they almost lose the will to live.

Anyway, this could be the kind of drastic measures our medical system is driving the elderly to consider instead of lingering in a sterile hospital environment in a state which no one wants to be in. My grandfather had Parkinsons' and it ate away at his mind and body. I refuse to remember him the way he was during my last visit with him. He was delusional, unable to get out of bed without assistance, he lost something like 70 lbs, it was pathetic. He wasn't living, he was alive but not living.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:35 PM   #139
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Originally posted by trevster2k
Hey anitram, did you see this week in BC where a 76-yr old man shot his 80 yr old wife in the hospital and then shot himself. No details as to the motive yet. Apparently, the woman was set to be placed in a long-term care facility, the couple was described as a loving and caring. My thinking is that they discussed this end of life issue and it's possible that the solution was killing the spouse and themselves instead of being separated and one or the other dying a slow death.
Don't confuse murder with romance. Frequently these men are horrified at the thought of having to care for themsleves for the first time since they were married, so they kill their wives, then themselves. Sometimes it's a mutual decision, but most of the time it isn't.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:38 PM   #140
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I don't support the death penalty. I could support euthanasia if it was the patient's choice and the patient was of a sound mind and could make that decision.

But those two issues seem like apples and oranges to me. A person dying slowly, wishing for euthanasia is not the same as an otherwise healthy person intentionally taking the lives of others against their will.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:41 PM   #141
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It was a beautiful thing watching this thread morph into a discussion about euthanasia. I'm with anitram on this one. One's death is a personal thing...to have the freedom to choose how you step into the void is a choice that not all of us will be able to make. It's either BLAM , you're gone or you get to watch and feel yourself decay form disease or age. None of us is gettin' out of here alive...those of you agianst euthanasia need to meditate seriously about this issue. I've seen what AIDS and ahlzheimer's do to the mind and the body. NObody wants to be remembered as they were at their weakest and often delusional point.

*Hey, just a small question to melon: how is it that if one is paralyzed they can still feel the pain? The definition of paralyzed is absence of sensation.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:55 PM   #142
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Originally posted by martha


See Justin, it's posts like this that make people crazy when they try to discuss something with you. You ramble on about playing God, you make illogical assumptions about how people feel and believe so you can make a point, and then you use the same wording that you just used to criticize the other person's viewpoint to support your position.

You always want it both ways. I sometimes think you don't exactly know what you think before you start arguing, or you haven't thought it through completely. And then you're unwilling to back down, so you just keep posting, ignoring what people have said so you can continue to have it both ways.


He said he wasn't playing God by having the man killed, and then in the next post he said the killer played God by killing. What is playing God, and what isn't?

Then he says we make it less painful with injection, someone says it's just as painful, and he says, good they should have pain.

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Old 09-01-2006, 02:20 PM   #143
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He said he wasn't playing God by having the man killed, and then in the next post he said the killer played God by killing. What is playing God, and what isn't?

Then he says we make it less painful with injection, someone says it's just as painful, and he says, good they should have pain.

I agree, there's a wanting it both ways he keeps going back and forth with his arguments. I don't know.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:36 PM   #144
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Hey folks, let's cool it with the public analysis of people's argument styles, please. Justin already gave his own reply to martha, and I think that should be the end of it. Thanks.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:45 PM   #145
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I do not see anything wrong with the execution of a criminal who was found guilty and the evidence is 100% accurate. After what that criminal did he is no longer a member of society, he/she is a dangerous menace, who can still cause harm in the prison system even though there not on the streets anymore. I am tired of the well he/she is a human being argument.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:50 PM   #146
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Originally posted by Justin24
I do not see anything wrong with the execution of a criminal who was found guilty and the evidence is 100% accurate. After what that criminal did he is no longer a member of society, he/she is a dangerous menace, who can still cause harm in the prison system even though there not on the streets anymore. I am tired of the well he/she is a human being argument.
When is evidence 100% accurate? How can we be so sure?

Ever seen 'The Life of David Gale'?
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:52 PM   #147
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I do not see anything wrong with the execution of a criminal who was found guilty and the evidence is 100% accurate.
But this is where you are wrong, there's no such thing as 100% accuracy...
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:57 PM   #148
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Never saw the film. might rent it this weekend. I saw Dead Man Walking. I had no remorse for Sean Penn's Character.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:59 PM   #149
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So if nothing is 100% accurate then why not let Manson go? Richard Ramirez? Hell to bad we killed Gacy cause nothing is 100% accurate
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:02 PM   #150
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I am tired of the well he/she is a human being argument.
And I'm tired of some of your arguments. If you keep putting up a fight, you're going to have to get used to these arguments. Some people believe in human rights.

And the whole point is that people do make mistakes. If they were guilty, they suffer life in prison with the same exact scenario everyday, nothing to look forward to, no choices. A loss of freedom. And if they're found innocent, we let them go.

Nothing is 100%, and you act like it is, and then say you don't feel guilty about people who had to deal with that? I don't understand it.
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