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Old 03-24-2004, 08:59 PM   #91
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Originally posted by agentmissa


Ok, the way I look at it is he made us, the world... he made us free, free to feel, think, react. We may be influence by him, but not controlled like puppets by him. If he could controll us, why would he have people not believe in him? That is what I meant by he can not control us.
If this is the case, the God is not sovereign and therefore is effectively impotent.

Zing.
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:01 PM   #92
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Originally posted by annj
God didnt creat an imperfect world the world was perfect so were adam and eve until they disobeyed God it was this action that made them imperfect in that they fell from Gods righteous standards, and condemning us with them as their offspring
How does this make sense? "Adam and Eve were perfect UNTIL..." you are either perfect or you are not. This is exactly what I was getting at. He should have started with perfection and saved Jesus the trouble later on. Also, it all seems pretty vengeful and nasty that WE should have to suffer for what they did. (if they even existed, they sound pretty mythical to me.)

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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

Also...if God is supposed to be all powerful then how does the sentence "he cannot control us" make sense? I admit to knowing next to nothing about religion so please forgive me if that's a stupid question.
That's EXACTLY what I want to know.

What is the POINT of all this suffering? It doesn't change whether someone will believe or not, it's just NEEDLESS. Everyone should have the same quality of life, and that's the part that is unfair. If *I* were starving and dying of AIDS, I would certainly not be too inclined to believe that God cared about me.
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Old 03-24-2004, 10:52 PM   #93
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Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
Also how ARE you supposed to pray? Is there a specific list of prayers in some official religious language, or can you just talk to God in your head?
i usually just talk to him in my head. if i'm alone though, i'll say something out loud. i think he listens regardless.

as for iacrobat's question, i don't know really. i guess i look at it like this: there is pain and suffering in the world. jesus had to go die on the cross because we sinned in the first place, because of adam and eve. without that, we'd probably all be running around naked being totally nice to each other and everything.

so because of all this, there's sin in the world. there is enough money and food to go around, but all the people who control it are greedy. they're looking out for #1 (in this case, themselves) and if they can't make money from it (most companies only seemed to get involved in charity if they can promote it and bring in more business for them) then they won't do it. so i think it is a combination of satan and the greed he brings on people to not be more generous. i'll admit, i can be kinda greedy at times. if someone asks me for a dollar, i don't always give it to them. but yeah, that's my theory at least.

if you think you've got it all and you see pain and suffering in the world, then by all means do something. give money to local homeless shelters. if you don't have the money to donate but you've got the time, then volunteer! these places are always looking for someone to help out at soup kitchens or to even pick up trash on the streets. volunteering is one way to help do your part, and the reward lasts a lifetime. (that sounded like a commercial, i know.)
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:32 AM   #94
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Originally posted by DaveC


If this is the case, the God is not sovereign and therefore is effectively impotent.

Zing.
Thank you for putting that aspect on it. I have ideas, but usually can not even get close to the point I usually want to make. I'll just say I think he is "there" waiting for me when I am done on this playing field.
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Old 03-25-2004, 12:42 AM   #95
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I'm trying to figure out the topic of this thead.

A) Do people want the readers to realize that religion is/isn't the way to help dieing/starving people.

B) To try to find someone to blame for every wronged person in the world.

C) Both A and B
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:32 AM   #96
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


You also miss the point that the missionary provides for BOTH physical and spiritual needs.

Even if you don't believe she needs salvation (the spiritual need), why criticize the work of the missionary? Its not like Africa is overrun with athiest organizations meeting physical needs.
No, I do understand this.

I guess I am not explaining myself. It bothers me that in order to receive physical relief, "spiritual relief" must also be accepted. In this sense the charity is conditional, it has strings.

There are "atheist" charities, Oxfam International for one, that work in Africa.

Sadly, the ultimate goal of missionary work is to save the soal, the motive is hardly pure.(to my eyes)

Though I do want to be clear. I do recognise that there are christian charities that do excellent work, and even some that don't try to convert. I don't want lump everything together.

Anitram
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Old 03-25-2004, 04:36 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally posted by agentmissa
I'm trying to figure out the topic of this thead.

A) Do people want the readers to realize that religion is/isn't the way to help dieing/starving people.

B) To try to find someone to blame for every wronged person in the world.

C) Both A and B
Well, if you read from the beginning (if you haven't already) you can see how the thread has evolved.

I don't think it is either of those things, though both have come up.

I think the thread is about perspective.

Maybe that doesn't help.
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:28 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally posted by agentmissa


Ok, the way I look at it is he made us, the world... he made us free, free to feel, think, react. We may be influence by him, but not controlled like puppets by him. If he could controll us, why would he have people not believe in him? That is what I meant by he can not control us.

And to answer the question about the world being unjust. If he does not control us we can not blame God for the environment that we have allowed to develop.
Fair enough about humans being responsible about the environment they have developed. What about the environment God has developed though? When an earthquake buries thousands of people under the rubble, no one can possibly say it's something people have any sort of control over.

Also, this idea of free will is something that always confuses me about Christian beliefs. Because while there's a notion that we are free to act whatever way we please, there's also this idea that God has a "plan" for every one of us and everything happens according to his will and his plan. How is that not mutually exclusive?
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Old 03-25-2004, 06:05 AM   #99
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Originally posted by iacrobat
It bothers me that in order to receive physical relief, "spiritual relief" must also be accepted.
I think you just summed up everything I've been trying to say in this thread in just the one sentence.

The fact remains that missionaries primary intention is to convert people to their religion, not to provide any kind of practical help to the people they're trying to convert.

I can't stand the idea, which has been articulated by some in this thread, that people living in, for example some African countries, must be "ignorant" because they don't share the same religious views as some people living in the West. I wonder how Americans would feel if people started flooding into their country, attempting to cure their "ignorance" by introducing them to a different religious belief.
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:37 AM   #100
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

I can't stand the idea, which has been articulated by some in this thread, that people living in, for example some African countries, must be "ignorant" because they don't share the same religious views as some people living in the West. I wonder how Americans would feel if people started flooding into their country, attempting to cure their "ignorance" by introducing them to a different religious belief.
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Old 03-25-2004, 01:48 PM   #101
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Originally posted by Saracene


Also, this idea of free will is something that always confuses me about Christian beliefs. Because while there's a notion that we are free to act whatever way we please, there's also this idea that God has a "plan" for every one of us and everything happens according to his will and his plan. How is that not mutually exclusive?
I am also confused about that myself. I don't fallow a lot of what they believe in. There are so many things like that which completely do not fit with each other. Of course maybe they use the word "plan" because itís so vague that you could take it any way you want. It was a joke, no one hate me.

Quote:
When an earthquake buries thousands of people under the rubble, no one can possibly say it's something people have any sort of control over.
I wish I knew. I'm assuming(which is bad) that the earth is free also.

Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
I think the thread is about perspective.
Good way to sum it up... thanks.
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Old 03-25-2004, 01:55 PM   #102
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


I can't stand the idea, which has been articulated by some in this thread, that people living in, for example some African countries, must be "ignorant" because they don't share the same religious views as some people living in the West. I wonder how Americans would feel if people started flooding into their country, attempting to cure their "ignorance" by introducing them to a different religious belief.
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Old 03-25-2004, 06:08 PM   #103
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Originally posted by Saracene
Fair enough about humans being responsible about the environment they have developed. What about the environment God has developed though? When an earthquake buries thousands of people under the rubble, no one can possibly say it's something people have any sort of control over.
Exactly.

Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene
Also, this idea of free will is something that always confuses me about Christian beliefs. Because while there's a notion that we are free to act whatever way we please, there's also this idea that God has a "plan" for every one of us and everything happens according to his will and his plan. How is that not mutually exclusive?
.

That, and somebody made a point one time in a thread regarding homosexuality and free will, but it can apply to other things, too...okay, so Christians believe we all have free will, but yet some of them are willing to try and convert people who don't follow their religion, or try to turn them to heterosexuality instead of let them act on their love for somebody of the same sex, and so on and so on...would that not be them trying to take away somebody's free will?

to everything else others have been saying, too.

Angela
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Old 03-25-2004, 10:58 PM   #104
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I guess I am not explaining myself. It bothers me that in order to receive physical relief, "spiritual relief" must also be accepted. In this sense the charity is conditional, it has strings.
Missionaries do not make aid conditional or attach strings. I'm not sure why this notion keeps getting repeated. I can't imagine why someone would criticize a religious aid organization that provides unconditional physical aid. Does the message strike a nerve?

If I see someone who has an "illness" and you see no "illness" - what is wrong with me offering a cure to the "illness" I see? Does it hurt you?
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Old 03-26-2004, 06:41 AM   #105
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Missionaries do not make aid conditional or attach strings. I'm not sure why this notion keeps getting repeated. I can't imagine why someone would criticize a religious aid organization that provides unconditional physical aid. Does the message strike a nerve?
They don't go there primarily to provide any kind of physical help to people. That's the point. They're not there to provide healthcare or housing or food. They're there to preach to people and convert them to their religion.

The difference between missionaries and aid agencies such as Oxfam or MSF is that missionaries are there to judge people, to say they are "ignorant" and try to convert them to a "true" religion. Aid agencies are non-judgemental, they don't go there to change people's beliefs or way of life, they have respect for people's beliefs and they go only to help people, not to attempt to convert them to a foreign religion.

Quote:
If I see someone who has an "illness" and you see no "illness" - what is wrong with me offering a cure to the "illness" I see? Does it hurt you?
Your sentence just sums up this debate.

Who are you to judge that somebody is "ill" because they don't share your religion?
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