Folks, I LOVE THE LORD!

[nbcrusader]

nbc, if your religion has passed judgement and you take the terms of the religion and follow it yourself, are you then accepting that judgement as well?

Absolutely. We are all sinners. We all fall short of the glory of God. The least of my sin is a great as the worst of anyone else.

 

[Angela Harlem]

sorry, i meant do you take on the views that the religion does, including judgement...it judges, and you support your religion obviously, which is what i meant to say.

 

[anitram]

There are still many indigenous religions in Africa. Yes, many Africans have converted to Christianity and Islam, but remote tribes have by and large preserved their views. Such is the case with most of the people in Namibia, because it is one of the most unforgiving places on earth, the Namib desert and therefore you have limited building of cities and infrastructure.

These people have their religious beliefs which they have followed for thousands of years. Interestingly enough, people like the Himba have not invaded other nations for profit, they've not colonized lands other than their own, they have not fought world wars, nor been a conquering people. They live in the desert, mostly naked, and rub themselves with red ochre as per their tradition. They have lived in peace and they impose nothing on anybody. And they're ignorant? I don't think so.

I think it's really important to realize the your truth doesn't have to be their truth. And if you cannot respect their right to follow the beliefs of their ancestors, then stay the hell out. That is how I feel, because these peaceful, loving people are not trying to cure your 'illness'. They are happy with their faith, it is a source of comfort and joy to them. They don't believe that we are all sinners. If you cannot cope with people not having the same beliefs as you, that is fine, but in this global society, let us extend each other the respect to follow our own path, to find our own truth.

 

[AcrobatMan]

These people have their religious beliefs which they have followed for thousands of years. Interestingly enough, people like the Himba have not invaded other nations for profit, they've not colonized lands other than their own, they have not fought world wars, nor been a conquering people. They live in the desert, mostly naked, and rub themselves with red ochre as per their tradition. They have lived in peace and they impose nothing on anybody. And they're ignorant? I don't think so.

I think it's really important to realize the your truth doesn't have to be their truth. And if you cannot respect their right to follow the beliefs of their ancestors, then stay the hell out. That is how I feel, because these peaceful, loving people are not trying to cure your 'illness'. They are happy with their faith, it is a source of comfort and joy to them. They don't believe that we are all sinners. If you cannot cope with people not having the same beliefs as you, that is fine, but in this global society, let us extend each other the respect to follow our own path, to find our own truth.

very well said anitram... excellent

 

[nbcrusader]

In all fairness to crusader, I think he meant by illness not that something is wrong at all (as in sick) but a need he perceives in that person. Illness might be a bad analogy.
But I might be wrong.

Illness may be a bad analogy for those who don't see everyone as a sinner. My bad.

Excuse the pun but that the hell happened to this thread??
I guess this is what happens when religion is moved into the friendly cafe atmosphere of FYM. Sarcasm thrown in for free.

It did take a turn when it was tossed out of GIS.

But on with what this has evolved into, I ask this in all honesty. Why do missionaries even bother with religion in places like Africa? I know the short answer is to encourage these people on what the missionaries believe is the chosen path, but why the attempts at conversion? Do these people not seem happy enough with their admirable and contented spirituality? Can it not be respected, and these people left to continue in their own method of faith?

Bear in mind that missionaries cannot convert people. Missionaries can only witness. Most of their witness is done through service - showing Christ's love through the feeding of the hungry, healing of the sick, aiding the poor. They also bring the Gospel - which means good news.

Let me ask you this. If you knew someone who had a cure to an illness (sin), but refused to tell anyone about the cure (even though they had taken the cure themselves) - what would you think about that person? To me it comes across as increadibly selfish.

Even if you think the cure is faulty or not needed, what is the harm of telling someone about this cure?

 

[AcrobatMan]

i see a connection with RELIGION, GOD and WAR here.

in the 3-4 threads that are currently active, the ones who strongly support the inclusion on GOD in pledges are the ones who strongly support missionary activities ( and JUSTIFY the subsequent conversions) are the ones who strongly support the IRAQ WAR.

there might be few exceptions but this is more or less the trend.

 

[iacrobat]

Is it really my judgment, or my understanding of God's judgment?

It's one in the same to me.

 

[Angela Harlem]

Let me ask you this. If you knew someone who had a cure to an illness (sin), but refused to tell anyone about the cure (even though they had taken the cure themselves) - what would you think about that person? To me it comes across as increadibly selfish.

Even if you think the cure is faulty or not needed, what is the harm of telling someone about this cure?

The first part of this is perfectly logical, if this is what you believe, which you coincidently do. There is a point I'd like to sidetrack on which is that a cure for this sin exists, despite the statements that we are all still sinners. So are we sinners or not, when is it a cure and when is it not? (sincerely asking) But that is probably getting into semantics. That aside though it still remains a faith issue. It is taking a belief and nothing more, and attempting to interfere and shape someone's life. It seems harmless. But is it? There is no certainty in any of this, only faith and what you believe is real. It reaches the point where the sins and faults of someone are pointed out to them and stated as a fact, when no one knows. If they dont agree with this, you dont see how it would be a bit rich? Even offensive to be called a sinner and the need for finding a saviour to save ones soul is paramount? I'm not sure I can explain this well, as you are a firm believer in all this.
Is there harm in telling someone about it? Well, is it wrong to say to someone, directly, "Buddy I hate to break it to you but you are damned. You are a sinner and you must be saved." ? Preaching and lecturing definitely. Telling someone? I dont think anyone has the right to call anyone a sinner, whether they believe in sin or not, you are telling them they are bad/faulty/sinful. Very negative, very rude, without factual basis.

 

[nbcrusader]

The Gospel message is difficult to share because it is predicated on the notion that we all need a Savior. No one likes to hear that they are a sinner. We all have a natural tendency to what to be masters of our own destiny. Even if we believe in heaven, we want to earn our way there, or control how we get in.

If my message is Sola Fide - we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone - I will get the "intolerant" label. Fortunately, this is God's message - not something I made up. I am at peace with whatever response I get to the message.

 

[anitram]

Bear in mind that missionaries cannot convert people. Missionaries can only witness. Most of their witness is done through service - showing Christ's love through the feeding of the hungry, healing of the sick, aiding the poor. They also bring the Gospel - which means good news.

But the issue is that they are going into highly vulnerable places on earth. It is not the same as you explaining your faith to me and I am able to make a conscious decision that I disagree because you are of no use to me.

When people are hungry and ridden with disease and you come bearing rice, penicillin and a Bible, it seems to me that you are taking advantage of them in a vulnerable state. Why is it that missionaries aren't here in the West attempting to witness through service with the Gospel? Because those of us here may not be receptive, and we may not be dependent on them.

Africa in specific leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As I said, I have family there, I'm more familiar with the situation than your average person. The West came in and raped this continent. Some estimates say 50 million people either died while being taken into slavery or became slaves. That is an unreal number. How many Western European nations colonized the lands, took the diamonds, raped the resources and forced the indigenous populations to live in some form of apartheid on their own land? And now when we've made them dependent on us for survival, we show up bearing gifts and Bibles and the whole thing truly stinks to me, but maybe that is just my feeling.

 

[iacrobat]

The Gospel message is difficult to share because it is predicated on the notion that we all need a Savior. No one likes to hear that they are a sinner. We all have a natural tendency to what to be masters of our own destiny. Even if we believe in heaven, we want to earn our way there, or control how we get in.

If my message is Sola Fide - we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone - I will get the "intolerant" label. Fortunately, this is God's message - not something I made up. I am at peace with whatever response I get to the message.

My issue with Sola Fide is that is has a tendency to focus on right belief. As a result, in evangelical Christianity (my experience of it at least) there is an intense focus on personal sin(drinking, smoking, fornication, swearing, etc.) versus sin that is inherently part of a society, shall we say social sin (ie. economic disparity, racism, other social injustices which Christ preached against).

Therefore there is an obsession with "clean living," while participation in an inherently oppressive and destructive way of life is hardly ever questioned. How many of your children's toys and clothes made in sweatshops? How much of your food is grown by poor farmers in Mexico and other developing countries who have no choice but to grow tomatoes so you can eat them year round? How's the mileage on your SUV? Is the Lord "blessing" you with prosperity for your faith? These are only a few examples, but this is where I parted with evangelical Christianity (and the whole thing in general). I sat at a bible study surrounded by a group of people who completely lacked perspective. The gospel was nothing more than a self help book, they might as well have been reading Tony Robins. This pretty much brings me back to the beginning of this thread and the "little problems that God solves" that irked me so much.

I do not want to paint all evangelical Christians with the same brush, and certainly not those here in FYM. This is my experience. The ones I have met who have a broader perspective than "clean living" are far and few between.

 

[iacrobat]

Africa in specific leaves a bad taste in my mouth. As I said, I have family there, I'm more familiar with the situation than your average person. The West came in and raped this continent. Some estimates say 50 million people either died while being taken into slavery or became slaves. That is an unreal number. How many Western European nations colonized the lands, took the diamonds, raped the resources and forced the indigenous populations to live in some form of apartheid on their own land? And now when we've made them dependent on us for survival, we show up bearing gifts and Bibles and the whole thing truly stinks to me, but maybe that is just my feeling.

Absolutely. There is a historical dynamic between the oppressed (blacks) and oppressor (whites) that I believe is not acknowledged or taken into account. There is a broader context that is ignored, we should be begging these people's forgiveness, not peddling it.

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

What the Western nations did and have done to Africa is shameful indeed. However, let us not forget that much of the slave trade was an extension of tribal wars going on in the continent at the time. When the Portugese made contact with African tribes in their voyages around the continent in the 15th and 16th centuries (on their way to the Indies) they were sold slaves by other tribes. Powerful tribes would often be the middleman between the Portugese and the weaker surrounding tribes. Also, the majority of African slaves came from Western Africa and were not taken from the whole continent. Muslims would also take part in the slave trade. Therefore, the responsibility for this horror should be spread to more shoulders than just the West.

 

[Salome]

But the issue is that they are going into highly vulnerable places on earth. It is not the same as you explaining your faith to me and I am able to make a conscious decision that I disagree because you are of no use to me.

interesting point

 

[iacrobat]

What the Western nations did and have done to Africa is shameful indeed. However, let us not forget that much of the slave trade was an extension of tribal wars going on in the continent at the time. When the Portugese made contact with African tribes in their voyages around the continent in the 15th and 16th centuries (on their way to the Indies) they were sold slaves by other tribes. Powerful tribes would often be the middleman between the Portugese and the weaker surrounding tribes. Also, the majority of African slaves came from Western Africa and were not taken from the whole continent. Muslims would also take part in the slave trade. Therefore, the responsibility for this horror should be spread to more shoulders than just the West.

While I don't know much about the history of the African slave trade, I would ask the question: what choice did the "middlemen" have?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Amazing what a simple and personal statement like "I love the Lord!" can be dragged into...

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Amazing what a simple and personal statement like "I love the Lord!" can be dragged into...

Well, that's FYM for ya. Actually, I think this thread originated in GIS so it's not that suprising it took a bit of a detour when it was moved to FYM.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Yeah, I love this forum because you can truly fee your mind and say what you think. I hope I haven't made any enemies for staying true to what I believe even though it disagrees with several of you think. It's all in good fun...I love arguing.

 

[jphelmet]

I just wanted to make one observation after reading this entire thread. I don't like to bring it up, as obviously no one else does in this thread eithr, but there is one very important part of the Christian world view and subsequently the evangelistic / missonairy efforts that has been neglected here. Christianity teaches in no uncertain terms that the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) , and that without forgiveness through Jesus Chris alone- the result is hell. Hell is what not one whats to mention, but the simple reality of being a Christian is that you believe in hell as a real and literal place. With that in mind the missionary life of seeking to save, convert, or whatever term you want to use is not so self serving. What does a missonary gain by leading someone to Christ? There is without a doubt people making lots and lots of money off of religion, but your not going to find many doing so on the mission field in Africa. My point simply is if I believe in literal hell, and those seperated from God, will go there - than I think that answers the question of why missioanries cannot just leave these content, loving people alone.

 

[iacrobat]

Goin' to hell! Nothing like fear to keep everyone in their place. Guilt is great isn't it?

 

[bugo]

I've only read the first couple of pages of this! but when you blame God for not fixing poverty how do you know the devil doesnt have input in this world? a horrid thought indeed but thats what I have come to conclude...

 

[nbcrusader]

Goin' to hell! Nothing like fear to keep everyone in their place. Guilt is great isn't it?

Are you saying you don't like the concept or are you saying it isn't true?

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Actually you don't go to heaven for doing good deeds. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your savior. That is all. No more no less. It is quite easy. He paid for your sins in the cross, he suffered what we as sinners were suppossed to suffer and that is what love is all about.

 

[annj]

Goin' to hell! Nothing like fear to keep everyone in their place. Guilt is great isn't it?

I know I am going to get into more controversy here for some by stating that the bible does not teach that we will suffer in some burning torment

if you look into it is mis translated and actually refers to the grave, it says Jesus was in hell for three days. the bible also states that the wages sin pays is death.. not eternal torment.

what people are actually being saved from is not burning in hell
but the sentence of death that adam and eve brought on us, by disobeying God, in the garden of Eden they actually decided they
wanted to be independent, they thought they would be like him being able to know for themselves what was good or bad and wouldnt need God anymore.... God had warned them that this would bring death.. but satan being a liar and causing rebellion told them it wouldn't, and made it seem tempting that God was holding something back from them

But if God was supposedly holding back something good from them as the devil insinuated.. why was it afterwards that adam and Eve hid from God, feeling ashamed, they didn't act like they had discovered something wonderful after they had eaten from the tree, in fact the opposite.. they knew they had done wrong
and in the end who was telling the truth? did they die, yes they did eventually that was the sentence they brought on themselves and their offspring us there is nowhere in the beginning of the bible does it say they are sentenced to some burning hell

God acted to right that wrong by sending his son Jesus to save us from that... adam was a perfect man and only in Gods high standards a perfect man could buy back what adam lost by so Jesus sacrificed his life for us, he didnt have to he wanted too..

God could have destroyed adam and eve and satan there and then.. but his integrity was being called into question his souvergnity was also being brought up. If he had the right to rule over his creation. destroying them would not have answered those questions.. so he has let this period of time pass for that reason, he has let man go his own way and rule themselves to see if they could do a a good job of it.. so you can look around you and see the results for yourself.. if the world is a wonderful place to live in being independent from God.

and even though he knew that that we were imperfect and sinful because of what adam and eve done he lovingly give us that chance to prove that there would be ones could serve him, not through guilt or the fear of going to hell, but because we want to have a close relationship with him like a parent does with a child,

and though he knew not all will want to serve him and have that relationship with him, he still send his son for all mankind to have that chance, so he can fulfil that purpose he started of with having the earth populated with people who will want to serve him having love for each other and him, and where sickness and death
and suffering will be wiped out.. when he was on earth Jesus healed the sick fed the hungry brought back those from death.. showing that is what he will do in the future

God does not want people to worship him out of fear or being burned or tormented in hell, once more this has to do with the early christian church mixing pagan beliefs with what the bible says twisting it around and misrepresenting Gods true purpose
making him seem cruel and uncaring... another one of satans tactics to get people to turn away from God.. and reading through this forums he certainly does a good job

But the bible states that God is not far of from those who are sincerly searching for him.. so you can find him, and discover that he is indeed Love

 

[Saracene]

Hmm... so if people die on Earth and do not go to heaven, what happens to them then? Blind oblivion? In that case, I still don't see why fear still wouldn't come into it: worship God and go to heaven, or stop existing forever.

The whole idea of hell is overall so nasty it IMO could only have been invented by the human mind.

Regarding Adam and Eve, apple, etc., what I could never understand is, if God really didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why not put it somewhere safe beyond anyone's reach? To me it looks too much like Adam and Eve's exit from Eden was very much a part of the big plan. Or at least a test.

 

[Liesje]

Regarding Adam and Eve, apple, etc., what I could never understand is, if God really didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why not put it somewhere safe beyond anyone's reach? To me it looks too much like Adam and Eve's exit from Eden was very much a part of the big plan. Or at least a test.

One of my theology profs taught that the eating of the apple was not the sin, it was sort of incidental. I don't remember exactly how she explained it, but she was reading from a much older version of the Bible (reading Hebrew and saying it outloud to us in English I think) and I guess Eve lies and says God said something that He never did and Adam just stands there and lets her lie about it. So according to her, they sinned, apple or not.

 

[annj]

humans were made for the earth, would you not agree.. God put us here to take care of the planet.. if he wanted us to be in heaven he would have created us there instead.

humans were suppose to live forever here on earth, but adam and eve scuppered this plan by their disobedience, maybe you could call it a test of their loyalty.. But God did not make them disobey him.. he told them what happened.. that they would die

he was not the one that put the temptation in front of them.. they were quite happy with this what is more he had provided plenty of other trees food ect so they wanted for nothing.. it was only satan the devil.. who put it into their head that God was witholding something from them.. God did not make satan do this, he like the rest of us have a free will, but Satan used this free will to try and claim that God has not the right to have a say over his creation, that the creation can decide for itself and can just be as good as God.. so God has let this time pass to prove his point, has satan claim that human can rule themselves without god proved true or false that is the big issue which is being answered right now.

and God was not asking adam and eve to do something imossible, sinful imperfect human afterwards faced harder tests and trials
there are many examples of those in the bible who proved faithful
even to death, who God remembers and will bring back.. he is the God of the living not of the dead....

and I know the new testiment speaks of those who have a heavenly calling.. which is true, those who follow in Jesus footsteps after his death will get raised to heaven, but that is a limited number who will rule with him in heaven in Gods kingdom to help restore this earth back to a paradise..

when you pray the our father prayer or Lords prayer and say Let your kindgom come let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.. that is what you are praying for.. Gods kingdom to come and it will remove satan and imperfect mans rule over the earth and be replaced with a righteous new goverment.. that will bring about real peace and security.. that is Gods plan for our future

 

[beli]

I grew up in the Australian outback. The Quaker missionaries visited regularly - and not just the impoverished Aboriginals but us well feed white kids too. If the object of a missionary is two fold, spiritual and physical, why did the missionaries preach to the white families too? We had food, clothing and shelter and were physically okay but yet the missionaries still felt the need to harass us too. (Not that I approve of them harassing the Aboriginals either) I grew up with children who were removed from their Aboriginal families by the churches and placed with white Christian families for what the missionaries considered to be their own good. I disagree with that sentiment. Fortunately this practice is now illegal.

I also worked for Oxfam for 5 years, here in Perth, not in remote areas. There is no shortage of people in Africa. We do not need to send any foreigners. 'Africans' are perfectly capable of planting their own grain and running their own lives in their own culturally significant way. Oxfam, as a few people have mentioned is indeed not aligned with any church. When I worked for Oxfam other charities such as World Vision would have fundraising events to send bibles to impoverished countries. Not food, clothing, grain, water purification systems, or animals to start breeding programmes but bibles. These charities did also send supplies too but why waste any resources at all on sending people and sending bibles?

I guess it depends on what you value. I?m all for trying to prevent death, illness, and poverty regardless of what religious flag the impoverished are flying.

 

[oliveu2cm]

Annj, I too have heard about what you are saying regarding hell. I've never done any research on my own, however (I wouldn't even know where to start). But what I'm wondering, from what you have read/know, if you can answer this: the devil is typically thought to "live" or exist in hell.. if there is no hell, where does he exist?? Surely it's a different place than heaven? Or does this theory not allow room for the devil to exist?

Thanks,
Carrie

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

I guess it depends on what you value. I?m all for trying to prevent death, illness, and poverty regardless of what religious flag the impoverished are flying.

Reading back over this thread, I keep coming back to one question: Why is it so hard for some people to respect different beliefs? So Christianity works for you -- that doesn't mean it works for everyone, why do you have to go around trying to convince other people that your religion is the "right" one? Why do you have to go halfway round the world to tell people that their beliefs are nonsense and they should convert to your religion? Why can't you just be happy that you've found a religion that works for you, accept that other people have beliefs that work for them and let them get on with their lives?