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Old 03-23-2004, 05:10 AM   #61
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
(1) living life according to God's will and (2) using God's gifts, asking questions and taking action are not mutually exclusive. Focusing on the "next life" should not blind us to the life we live today.
I absolutely 100% agree with you NB.

I only responded to something that said otherwise.
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:24 AM   #62
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Originally posted by BrownEyedBoy
I didn't "agree" with you. You translated and understood the message that best way you saw fit. I simply meant to say "If that's the way you want to see it, then fine"

But the truth is, in order to achieve God's purpose for yout life you have to surrender to God's will. Sometimes you may not understand it but some orders you don't understand until you've completed them...whence myu agreeing with your "shut up and listen" translation.

I hope I clarified myself a little.
I understand a bit better now.

Listening is different from "not asking questions,"which is what I said.
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:37 AM   #63
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There may be a god there may not be a god. If I live a good life and attempt to give back to society or make a contribution to human knowledge I leave the world in slightly better shape for everyone to enjoy. If there happens to be a god then I will be judged on personal merit, not on how much I believe or disbelieved in him/her/it/totally undefined.

For the record I am an agnostic because I think the natural world and everything within the universe can be explained with reason and science but how it all started (Im getting into what created the universe in the begining, set the ball rolling, the ultimate Why type questions and not some sort of creationist BS) is inherently unknowable (with current and forseeable means, it may change) and a divine intervention is as good as any.
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Old 03-23-2004, 03:56 PM   #64
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Originally posted by Got Philk?



Makes perfect sense. Someone once said to me that perhaps this is one question we will never know the answer to. Much like, why does God allow evil to occur. Some would say it's judgment on the sinful world. Others, that suffering and poverty are the result of man's sinfulness.

I don't know the answers, but I think it is ok to struggle with questions such as these. If anyone else has any insights on these questions, please, help us out.
Ok why is there so much suffering going on in the world.. why is God letting it happen, I can help you with some of the answers only it would take too long to explain it her so I will just say first you have to believe that the bible itself is Gods word.. that adam and Eve really existed and there is such thing as the devil..

accepting these things brings you to the beginning of the bible where the whole mess began when they disobeyed God by eating of that tree the whole issue is actually dealing with Gods rightful souviegntry which satan is challenging by getting the humans to rebel against God implying that they don't need him and can manage just fine without him.

Adam and eve chose to listen to the devils lies thinking that he had a point. then lo and behold they realise they made a big mistake.. that the Devil was actually lied to them, but to late for us because of what they done they became imperfect which is what sin is, and as their off spring we became imperfect.. that is why Jesus had to die to buy back that perfection that adam lost no other human could do this but God loved the world so much that he give his only begotten son.. but of course we have to do our bit by putting faith in that sacrifice and obeying his commands he left in the bible .. the reason why the world is so bad today is because the further we get along the more imperfect and farther from God we get... plus satan and his demons are controlling the world at the moment because they were ousted from heaven
why God is standing back is to answer satans challenge that man can rule himself... as you can see from the mess the world is in the answer speaks for itself

I mean if someone was spreading malicious lies about you.. would you not want the chance to prove them wrong?

so when God does step in to put things right the way they should be the angels in the heavens and all other of Gods creation including Satan will realise that they were wrong so God will be justified in destroying Satan because they can see the damage his rebellion has caused the whole human race we have not benefited from being independent from God.. but he does promise that whatever mess men and satan have done over all the time he will put it right

rev 21
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. 2 I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his peoples. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

and thats why I love him
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Old 03-23-2004, 05:44 PM   #65
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I am sure that is comforting to the starving AIDS orphan in Africa.

"Don't worry sonny, it'll all work out in end. Just sit tight."
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:37 PM   #66
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That is why missionaries try to meet both spiritual and physical needs.
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Old 03-24-2004, 04:21 AM   #67
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
I am sure that is comforting to the starving AIDS orphan in Africa.

"Don't worry sonny, it'll all work out in end. Just sit tight."

Actually when Jesus was on earth and he cured the sick fed the hungry it was only a sample of what he was going to do in the future, so it does offer a hope, for those starving AIDS orphans,
that one day they will be a time when they will no longer be starving,
God will resurrect them into a better world with no more sickness or death no more starvation, no more wars and whats more they won't even remember the suffering they went through
that this life as it is is not just ALL there is.

He just doesnt let them die and forget about them, he keeps them all in his memory so he can resurrect them when the time comes he see the suffering they are going through.. brought on by mans own mismanagment, remember Bono and others are saying their is medicines available and they should be made available to those people, but its money thats more important to those drug companies not human life. there is enough food to feed everyone, once more men control it and how its handled.

and men are imperfect and as hard as they try they can't solve the problem, because they are selfish and will always put greed of money first. I am not saying everyone is like that I know there are people out there trying to help these ones, but they get frustrated fighing the system in which it is all set up.. that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer
what I am saying God is going to step in and do away with this sort of thing because it will be his laws.

Did Jesus ask for money when he cured the sick and resurrected the dead or fed the hungry did he favour certain ones over others... no so if I thought somone like that was going to help me I would feel a lot better. when people pray the lords prayer or our father prayer they ask for Gods kingdom to come for his will to be done on earth as it is in heaven.. well that is Gods will
to wipe out all sickness and death His Kingdom is a heavenly goverment that will rule over the earth and bring all this about
so he is doing something sending out this message of hope from the bible to give comfort to those who are suffering letting them know why they are suffering at the moment and to let them know he will bring about better conditions for them
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Old 03-24-2004, 04:47 AM   #68
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You are still saying the same thing. It justifies the status quo. It's easy for me that "this is the way it's meant to be."

If we are responsible for poverty and suffering, can we not rectify it?

What "spiritual" needs are missionaries meeting?
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Old 03-24-2004, 07:17 AM   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
You are still saying the same thing. It justifies the status quo. It's easy for me that "this is the way it's meant to be."

If we are responsible for poverty and suffering, can we not rectify it?

You tell me man has tried to illiminate poverty and suffering for how long? they have made all these wonderful technical advances
but the basic things in many places over the world a good quality of life is just not happening despite this we have all sort of goverments tried all different ways, are men any closer to finding the solution?
They can send probes to mars.. but they can't feed the people on the planet... they can spend millions on weapons
but can never find the money to send medicines and food to ALL those who need it...can you not see that there is something strange there? men are imperfect, and will always make imperfect desicions, mostly motivated by their own selfishness and greed and looking out for their own glory because that is the spirit of the world because
Satan is the ruler of this world, he knows he only has a short time left before God destroys him, but he wants to take as many of us with him before he goes down he wants to destroy the world
*********************
rev 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Mi´cha·el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled 8 but it did not prevail, neither was a place found for them any longer in heaven. 9 So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven say:

“Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ, because the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down, who accuses them day and night before our God! 11 And they conquered him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their witnessing, and they did not love their souls even in the face of death. 12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”

****************************

This is the time we are living in considering it is a powerful spirit creature, the only one who can deal with Him is God... I am not saying we just sit back and do nothing.. of course whatever aid and help we can give these people we should do so now... But compared to what God can do it will always be a short term answer not a complete wiping out of the problem which is ultimately happening because of the time we are living in.

yes if God wanted to he could stop it all now.. but he is using this time to let people know what is happening because he is going to have to bring down satan and those who refuse to listen to him and obey his commandents he give us in the bible but he also know there are those who will want to live by the rules of his laws, he is giving them this chance to turn to him before he brings destruction on it so it is not only a message of hope but of showing mercy to those who want it.


***************
ecclesiates chapter 8 verse 9
All this I have seen, and there was an applying of my heart to every work that has been done under the sun, [during] the time
that man has dominated man to his injury.

John chap 16
“ 9 in the first place, concerning sin, because they are not exercising faith in me; 10 then concerning righteousness, because I am going to the Father and YOU will behold me no longer; 11 then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged. then concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged
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Old 03-24-2004, 09:00 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
What "spiritual" needs are missionaries meeting?
Offering a cure for the ultimate disease of sin. Giving eternal hope and the knowledge of a loving God. It means a lot more to those who have little. The wealthy think they can get by on their own without God.
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Old 03-24-2004, 12:33 PM   #71
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It just seems to me that a perfect God creating an imperfect world and not being able (or willing) to get rid of the devil or suffering is an insurmountable contradiction. It all seems totally pointless. If God loves us that much he should treat everyone fairly.
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Old 03-24-2004, 12:53 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
It just seems to me that a perfect God creating an imperfect world and not being able (or willing) to get rid of the devil or suffering is an insurmountable contradiction. It all seems totally pointless. If God loves us that much he should treat everyone fairly.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:05 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mrs. Edge
It just seems to me that a perfect God creating an imperfect world and not being able (or willing) to get rid of the devil or suffering is an insurmountable contradiction. It all seems totally pointless. If God loves us that much he should treat everyone fairly.
God didnt creat an imperfect world the world was perfect so were adam and eve until they disobeyed God it was this action that made them imperfect in that they fell from Gods righteous standards, and condemning us with them as their offspring

God could have destroyed adam and Eve and the devil there and then.. but satan had implied that humans the angels didnt need God, and that Gods way of ruling was not for the best

would destroying satan at that time proved that point? the question and the challenge were still there, So God give satan and adam and eve and their future children the chance to see how they fared without him.. that is the reason why the devil is still around and why there is so much suffering.

as for him being fair when his son Jesus died for our sins and in redemption for what adam and eve did the offer was opened for everyone from all over the earth to accept faith in that sacrifice rich poor young old from every nationality creed and colour he is not holding back that offer from any one..

but he is not going to force them to come to him if they don't want to either. he wants us to have a loving relationship with him. He give us his word the Bible to help us live our lives have you ever read Jesus sermon on the mount or the commandments that God give to Moses basically its is about treating your fellow humans with love and to care for each other the bible is the biggest selling book worldwide available to everyone.. so he is not holding anything back from any one its there for all to read.

Is it Gods fault that the majority of the people don't listen? yet he keeps being patient with us, not destroying us in the hope we will turn to him and listen to what he says even when we deny he exists and keep sinning

With the fact proven that without Gods hand in matters this world is screwed up and man cannot seem to be able to manage his own affairs God will soon get rid of satan and do away with the suffering and he will treat everyone fairly no more death or sickness starvation a human family showing love for each other and for God just as it should have been in the beginning that was what his purpose was and still is. Of course it is up to us if we want to be part of it, and if we do we have to conform ourselves to his standards.. because you can see the mess the world is in right now because they don't
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:48 PM   #74
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Originally posted by annj


You tell me man has tried to illiminate poverty and suffering for how long? they have made all these wonderful technical advances
but the basic things in many places over the world a good quality of life is just not happening despite this we have all sort of goverments tried all different ways, are men any closer to finding the solution?
They can send probes to mars.. but they can't feed the people on the planet... they can spend millions on weapons
but can never find the money to send medicines and food to ALL those who need it...can you not see that there is something strange there? men are imperfect, and will always make imperfect desicions, mostly motivated by their own selfishness and greed and looking out for their own glory because that is the spirit of the world because
Satan is the ruler of this world, he knows he only has a short time left before God destroys him, but he wants to take as many of us with him before he goes down he wants to destroy the world
*********************
The world ruled by satan?
More escapist nonsense.
You and I are responsible for the state of the world, we hardly need the devil's help.

Please don't just spew bible verses at me, as if the meaning is self evident.
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Old 03-24-2004, 02:52 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Offering a cure for the ultimate disease of sin. Giving eternal hope and the knowledge of a loving God. It means a lot more to those who have little. The wealthy think they can get by on their own without God.
We are the wealthy NB.

How nice it is of us to identify that these people have some sort of spiritual problem and need saving.

Should charity have strings attached? Why can't we just meet their physical needs?
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