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Old 11-06-2003, 05:58 PM   #16
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nbcrusader,

No, my question is not that.

My question is how can one perceive that god fixes your printer on demand, yet does not fix poverty and suffering on demand. To say that poverty and suffering was paid for (and somehow erradicated, rendered acceptable until the "next world"?) on the cross is offensive and utterly meaningless. Nothing is finished, to claim so is escapist.
The question was rhetorical.
God does not intervene to stem injustice any more than to change your printer cartridge.

It is mind boggling to me how one can say that god solves ones "stupid little" problems, but not the "serious big" ones.
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:49 PM   #17
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"You may never know that Jesus is all you need until Jesus is all you have." - Corrie TenBoom (Christian Holocaust survivor)

Been there.

iacrobat, interesting perspective. I too wonder just how much and how far God intervenes in my life and in the world. I attribute all my blessings (and I have many) to God and I am thankful, but... Why ME? and why not my dear friend dying from a brain tumor or the 5 year old boy that was hit by a car, or the AIDS patient, or the American soldier blown away today in Iraq (OR the innocent Iraqi child taken too).

... and does God REALLY care who wins the Super Bowl?

Anyhow, I do not know you at all (in fact I am brand new here!!) and I may be reading your comment on the cross completely wrong, but... Jesus did NOT die on the cross to say that poverty and suffering is ok. I'm not sure that you are already telling us that, or you think that that IS the Christian belief.

... Now I'm confused.

Anyway. glad to be here.

Peace.
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Old 01-23-2004, 08:35 PM   #18
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I disagree, too. With the bit about Jesus dying to end suffering and poverty, that is. I'm not sure how that conclusion came about, or why, or...yes. I'm confused.

It's not 'the Christian belief' though. Or, it's not my Christian belief.

I disagree with a lot of what you said...but I'm not quite clear on what you were saying to know where to start.
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Old 01-24-2004, 08:19 PM   #19
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I Love God too! He rocks! Yes, I too look for God to help me about with stupid stuff. I just got an expander for my teeth. I say God's going to help me get through this. I wrote poetry about my love for God!
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Old 01-25-2004, 12:48 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
It is mind boggling to me how one can say that god solves ones "stupid little" problems, but not the "serious big" ones.
I see what you're saying....

I think the concept of God's work and what he "fixes" or not varies person to person. Honestly, when I loose my ID card and someone returns it days later, or when I think I've failed a test but the grade comes back ok - daily, personal issues like that, I'd be very reluctant to assume God's work. I'm not saying that God CAN'T be involved in or DOESN'T have control over my grades, returning lost objects, making broken things work, but for me personally, I would hope that God is not spending time on petty insignificant instances like those instead of helping those in REAL pain an suffering. I'd rather have God bring peace to someone dying of AIDS, or a starving child, than fix my computer so I can post on Interference. I don't feel like I deserve that type of attention. But that's just me

Often, my prayers are answered in ways I'd never expect, and this almost always applies to relationships. For example, after I met my current boyfriend and we starting hanging out in class, just as friends, I remember thinking, he's a really cool guy, he's exactly the type of person I'd like to go out with someday. Now, I wasn't praying for or looking for a boyfriend at the time, not to mention Phil was still going out with a girl he had been for three years and she lived accross the hall from me....but things change and we ended up together. I look back and laugh b/c when I thought, "God, he is the perfect type of man for me" I never thought I'd get HIM, I just wanted a guy LIKE him! But I guess that's God's sense of humor
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Old 01-25-2004, 10:49 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by big giant head

Anyhow, I do not know you at all (in fact I am brand new here!!) and I may be reading your comment on the cross completely wrong, but... Jesus did NOT die on the cross to say that poverty and suffering is ok. I'm not sure that you are already telling us that, or you think that that IS the Christian belief.
I was responding to seankirkland's post which said:

Quote:
He has finished everything on the cross, once and for all. All the injustice, poverty, and troubles were paid for and suffered for by Jesus.
No, I don't think that is "the" or should be a christian belief. We are in agreement I think.

And welcome!
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Old 01-25-2004, 12:43 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I would hope that God is not spending time on petty insignificant instances like those instead of helping those in REAL pain an suffering. I'd rather have God bring peace to someone dying of AIDS, or a starving child, than fix my computer so I can post on Interference. I don't feel like I deserve that type of attention. But that's just me
This post may be really stupid, in which case you should all feel free to ignore me.

I don't actually disagree with you, but... isn't God "powerful" enough to do all of those things? Does it really have to be a either/or choice between them? After all, there are more than six billion people in the world, if even one in every hundred people believes in God and prays to Him that's still 60,000,000 people (lol, that tested my math skills!) and if we use our human concept of "time" then it would be impossible for God to have time to hear and answer all their prayers. So I guess I'm saying that I don't think that if someone prays for something seemingly irrelevant (like their computer being fixed!) it means that someone else's prayer for something "important" like making someone who is ill healthy again can't be answered also.
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Old 01-25-2004, 04:12 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees

I don't actually disagree with you, but... isn't God "powerful" enough to do all of those things? Does it really have to be a either/or choice between them? After all, there are more than six billion people in the world, if even one in every hundred people believes in God and prays to Him that's still 60,000,000 people (lol, that tested my math skills!) and if we use our human concept of "time" then it would be impossible for God to have time to hear and answer all their prayers. So I guess I'm saying that I don't think that if someone prays for something seemingly irrelevant (like their computer being fixed!) it means that someone else's prayer for something "important" like making someone who is ill healthy again can't be answered also.
Oh yes, like I said in my post, God CAN make the smallest difference and of course He's powerful enough, I won't challenge that, all I'm saying is that for me personally, I'd rather have God not worry about the tiny little annoyances in MY life and focus on another person somewhere else who is in far greater pain. I don't think it has to be an either/or, and I don't believe it is, but that's just what I feel.

For example, I often get stressed or worried about stupid little things and inside I get frusterated or angry. But then I watch the news, or read a new article about Africa and end up feeling guilty and selfish b/c what I consider in my life to be "problems" are usually matters of luxury and comfort, or something that I screwed up myself.

I guess what I mean is that if something minor happened, like my computer broke, or I lost my ID, or I didn't have enough cash to buy lunch, I'd hope that my prayer would be that God would help me realize how insignificant these things are and how I should try and chill out and not become so easily flustered, rather than praying for God to intervene and fix every problem that comes my way. Does that make sense?

It's more a personal matter rather than what I think God and prayer are truly capable of. God is powerful enough to do anything and I know He hears EVERY prayer, no matter how small. But what I'm saying is that some prayers for me personally seem more appropriate than others. I should be more inclined to pray with thanks, or to pray that God would open my eyes, because I already have more than I'll ever deserve.
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Old 01-26-2004, 12:08 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic
I guess what I mean is that if something minor happened, like my computer broke, or I lost my ID, or I didn't have enough cash to buy lunch, I'd hope that my prayer would be that God would help me realize how insignificant these things are and how I should try and chill out and not become so easily flustered, rather than praying for God to intervene and fix every problem that comes my way. Does that make sense?
very well said. Prayer ends up changing us.
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Old 01-26-2004, 04:50 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


This post may be really stupid, in which case you should all feel free to ignore me.

I don't actually disagree with you, but... isn't God "powerful" enough to do all of those things? Does it really have to be a either/or choice between them?

-snip-

So I guess I'm saying that I don't think that if someone prays for something seemingly irrelevant (like their computer being fixed!) it means that someone else's prayer for something "important" like making someone who is ill healthy again can't be answered also.
The problem is that God doesn't appear to answer them both. Printer problems are miraculously solved, yet many die of poverty. It's a huge lack of perspective and that leads to a "self help" religion.

I like what you said LivLuvAndBootlegMusic.
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Old 01-29-2004, 02:13 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by iacrobat
[B]The problem is that God doesn't appear to answer them both. Printer problems are miraculously solved, yet many die of poverty. It's a huge lack of perspective and that leads to a "self help" religion.
[B]
I hope I'm not misinterpreting your post by saying this:

The problem with comparing the small problems to the large scale ones it that sometimes we're comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. Take the broken printer for example, I just can't see how the printer working is a miracle. Maybe it's because I fix computers and printers as a job, but when a printer doesn't work, it's because it really is broken. Either it's jammed or a part is broken or you did something wrong. A simple printer error is something that humans have control over (I don't mean to say God COULDN'T have control, 'cus he does over everything). Things like AIDS, cancer, natural disasters, humans never have and seemingly never will have control over.

So I can't really answer "why does God fix printers and computers when we are frusterated, but not the huge problems of the world?" because I fail to see how those issues are even worth comparing. My question would be "Why does God NOT fix issues of global suffering since we all know He could if He wanted to?"

Make any sense?
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Old 01-30-2004, 03:36 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


My question would be "Why does God NOT fix issues of global suffering since we all know He could if He wanted to?"

Make any sense?

Makes perfect sense. Someone once said to me that perhaps this is one question we will never know the answer to. Much like, why does God allow evil to occur. Some would say it's judgment on the sinful world. Others, that suffering and poverty are the result of man's sinfulness.

I don't know the answers, but I think it is ok to struggle with questions such as these. If anyone else has any insights on these questions, please, help us out.
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Old 02-01-2004, 01:23 AM   #28
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


very well said. Prayer ends up changing us.
A lot of Catholic monks (like the Dominicans, Benedictines, etc) are now getting into Eastern meditation. It's not well known, but there are increasingly more books written (I just read a very good one) about accessing God by finding a stillness inside.

I think oftentimes we are restricting ourselves to traditional prayer. There are many ways to pray. I am a huge fan of meditation, for one.
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Old 02-01-2004, 02:22 AM   #29
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I think oftentimes we are restricting ourselves to traditional prayer. There are many ways to pray. I am a huge fan of meditation, for one.
I completely agree. Sometimes I feel guilty b/c I know I don't pray as much as I should, but by forcing myself to pray more, I feel nothing. Music is sort of prayer for me. Even listening to Streets from the Boston DVD, I wasn't there, but I feel it more than when I pray. Or like when I listen to the first mp3 of American Prayer and remember how it felt being there and hearing that song live and how many people were crying, I feel something when Bono sings "These are the hands, what are we gonna do with them? This is a church you can't see." Or even that new cheesy Train song When I Look To The Sky, it always reminds me of my very good friend who died recently, and listening to that song turns the sadness into peace, more than any religious song every could. I'm not sure why, but it does.
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Old 02-02-2004, 04:19 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


I hope I'm not misinterpreting your post by saying this:

The problem with comparing the small problems to the large scale ones it that sometimes we're comparing apples to oranges, so to speak. Take the broken printer for example, I just can't see how the printer working is a miracle. Maybe it's because I fix computers and printers as a job, but when a printer doesn't work, it's because it really is broken. Either it's jammed or a part is broken or you did something wrong. A simple printer error is something that humans have control over (I don't mean to say God COULDN'T have control, 'cus he does over everything). Things like AIDS, cancer, natural disasters, humans never have and seemingly never will have control over.

So I can't really answer "why does God fix printers and computers when we are frusterated, but not the huge problems of the world?" because I fail to see how those issues are even worth comparing. My question would be "Why does God NOT fix issues of global suffering since we all know He could if He wanted to?"

Make any sense?
Yes, you are misintepreting my post.

I believe this thread began by someone thanking God for fixing their printer/computer. It was this that I responded to:

Quote:
from Stories for Boys:

he's most amazing in the littlest of things. i'm gonna mention a couple stupid things that made me smile and say thanks to the lord in the past few days...

my printer wasn't working and i was fighting with it for a very long time. finally i just prayed and said "lord, please! i'm frustrated...just let it work!" the very next try it printed for me.

also, i spent quite a while preparing a post here...probably half an hour or forty five minutes...and then my parent's computer froze on me. i was angry and annoyed. i asked the lord to help and withing 10 seconds it unfroze itself..

i know those are just stupid little things, but i also know that the lord is listening when i cry out to him...

thanks for the great post, 80sU2!
Why can't I cry out "just let the starving eat" and not have a result in 10 seconds?

So my comparison was only to point out the absurdity of attributing the "miracle" of a fixed computer to god, when so many larger problems exist and are waiting for a miracle. What kind of view of the world is this?

It is an apples and oranges comparison for me, but for some it appears to be apples and apples because perspective is lacked.

I think we are talking along the same lines here.

Except that I don't think god has control over everything, although that is a very vague idea. I am not sure what that means.
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