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Old 05-26-2004, 11:48 AM   #151
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Originally posted by oliveu2cm
Annj, I too have heard about what you are saying regarding hell. I've never done any research on my own, however (I wouldn't even know where to start). But what I'm wondering, from what you have read/know, if you can answer this: the devil is typically thought to "live" or exist in hell.. if there is no hell, where does he exist?? Surely it's a different place than heaven? Or does this theory not allow room for the devil to exist?

Thanks,
Carrie
Satan is not confined to some underworld where there is some everlasting fire where people suffer he is a angel. a poweful spirit creature who we cannnot see with our eyes, I was told chastised before on this thread for stating that the devil is near the vicinity of the earth.. but that is where he is right now, he and the other angels who joined him in rebelling against God he has been thrown out of heaven but soon he will be destroyed by God,

Being the evil creature that he is, he wants to take as many with him as possible that is why there is so much wickedness in the world today.. Jesus actually refered to satan as being the ruler of the world,
did Satan not offer Jesus all the kingdoms on earth for an act of obedience to him..? Jesus never said that they were not his to offer.. but rejected it saying it is God alone you should give worship too

if you read the bible book of John Jesus is speaking to his disciples.. he tells them that they are to be no part of the world.. that the world will hate them as it as hated him, that is because we are all living under satans rule it says the devil is roaming the earth like a lion wanting to devour people and he can even appear as an angel of light, he will use whatever deceptive powers he can to draw people away from God, making what is bad seem good.. just like he did with adam and eve in the garden of eden,
that is why man will never be able to solve the problems on this earth and only God and his son Jesus who are more powerful than the devil will bring it to an end,
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Old 05-26-2004, 12:01 PM   #152
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Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees




Reading back over this thread, I keep coming back to one question: Why is it so hard for some people to respect different beliefs? So Christianity works for you -- that doesn't mean it works for everyone, why do you have to go around trying to convince other people that your religion is the "right" one? Why do you have to go halfway round the world to tell people that their beliefs are nonsense and they should convert to your religion? Why can't you just be happy that you've found a religion that works for you, accept that other people have beliefs that work for them and let them get on with their lives?
Where I am concerned I can't speak for others on this thread, I don't just preach or force my religion on anyone who doesn't want it as such by offering social and financial aid

Gods message is not just for the few but for everyone, no matter if we are rich poor old young from whatever race or background all of us suffer from illness losing loved ones in death financial difficulties .. why I do it is that Jesus commanded us to go and preach the good news.. to give hope to all, to bring a message that one day his kingdom will do away with all these problems

if I knew that there was a better future for everyone.. that there would be no more death or sickness, that we have a chance to see our loved ones who we have lost through death, that there will be a world where there is no more sickness or worry and we will all live in peace with one another...

I think it would be rather selfish of me not to share this wonderful hope with others, God told us to love our neighbours.. yes we can support them physically and financially those who are less well of than ourselves.. but that is not what it is all about.... if I can show them from the bible that God is doing something about the wickedness in the world and bring it to an end and give them hope, is that not a way of showing love.. I have no desire to convert anyone to my religion..
if they don't want to.. in the end I give them the information.. its up to them what they do about it
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Old 05-26-2004, 01:58 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by annj


Satan is not confined to some underworld where there is some everlasting fire where people suffer he is a angel. a poweful spirit creature who we cannnot see with our eyes, I was told chastised before on this thread for stating that the devil is near the vicinity of the earth.. but that is where he is right now, he and the other angels who joined him in rebelling against God he has been thrown out of heaven but soon he will be destroyed by God,

You are right that Satan is not confined to hell.
(Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "From where do you come?" Then Satan answered the LORD and said, "From roaming about on the earth and walking around on it.")

But to say there is no such place as Hell , that is where biblical you are off. There are several references to Hell- a very real place with fire. Jesus himself makes reference to it on more than one occasion (Matthew 18:8-And if your hand or your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; it is better for you to enter life crippled or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into the eternal fire. Matthew 25:41- Then He will say to those at His left, 'You that are accursed, depart from Me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. )

The bible also talks very clearly that the wages of sin is death, but it does not just stop with death. It is clear teaching throughout the bible that the it is not just the ceasing of being, but there is a punishment of sin that has to be dealt with for those who do not come to God in Christ. I will have to read and find exact references but the couple that come to mind of the top of my head are:
2Th 1:6-10 For after all it is {only} just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
and {to give} relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed--for our testimony to you was believed.
and
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever

I am not trying to antagonize anyone, I'm just not sure how you can get from the study of the bible that there is no Hell. There is quite a bit of evidence in scripture.
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Old 05-26-2004, 02:17 PM   #154
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Originally posted by annj


Where I am concerned I can't speak for others on this thread, I don't just preach or force my religion on anyone who doesn't want it as such by offering social and financial aid

Gods message is not just for the few but for everyone, no matter if we are rich poor old young from whatever race or background all of us suffer from illness losing loved ones in death financial difficulties .. why I do it is that Jesus commanded us to go and preach the good news.. to give hope to all, to bring a message that one day his kingdom will do away with all these problems

if I knew that there was a better future for everyone.. that there would be no more death or sickness, that we have a chance to see our loved ones who we have lost through death, that there will be a world where there is no more sickness or worry and we will all live in peace with one another...

I think it would be rather selfish of me not to share this wonderful hope with others, God told us to love our neighbours.. yes we can support them physically and financially those who are less well of than ourselves.. but that is not what it is all about.... if I can show them from the bible that God is doing something about the wickedness in the world and bring it to an end and give them hope, is that not a way of showing love.. I have no desire to convert anyone to my religion..
if they don't want to.. in the end I give them the information.. its up to them what they do about it
Your last few posts have been superb!
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Old 05-26-2004, 02:26 PM   #155
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This is taken from a book I own called reasoning from the scriptures about hell.. which answers most of the questions
if you are interested further you can email me at annjane38@hotmail.com


Definition: The word “hell” is found in many Bible translations. In the same verses other translations read “the grave,” “the world of the dead,” and so forth. Other Bibles simply transliterate the original-language words that are sometimes rendered “hell”; that is, they express them with the letters of our alphabet but leave the words untranslated. What are those words? The Hebrew she’ohl´ and its Greek equivalent hai´des, which refer, not to an individual burial place, but to the common grave of dead mankind; also the Greek ge´en·na, which is used as a symbol of eternal destruction. However, both in Christendom and in many non-Christian religions it is taught that hell is a place inhabited by demons and where the wicked, after death, are punished (and some believe that this is with torment).

Does the Bible indicate whether the dead experience pain?

Eccl. 9:5, 10: “The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol,* the place to which you are going.” (If they are conscious of nothing, they obviously feel no pain.) (*“Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB; “the grave,” KJ, Kx; “hell,” Dy; “the world of the dead,” TEV.)

Ps. 146:4: “His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; in that day his thoughts* do perish.” (*“Thoughts,” KJ, 145:4 in Dy; “schemes,” JB; “plans,” RS, TEV.)

Does the Bible indicate that the soul survives the death of the body?

Ezek. 18:4: “The soul* that is sinning—it itself will die.” (*“Soul,” KJ, Dy, RS, NE, Kx; “the man,” JB; “the person,” TEV.)

“The concept of ‘soul,’ meaning a purely spiritual, immaterial reality, separate from the ‘body,’ . . . does not exist in the Bible.”—La Parole de Dieu (Paris, 1960), Georges Auzou, professor of Sacred Scripture, Rouen Seminary, France, p. 128.

“Although the Hebrew word nefesh [in the Hebrew Scriptures] is frequently translated as ‘soul,’ it would be inaccurate to read into it a Greek meaning. Nefesh . . . is never conceived of as operating separately from the body. In the New Testament the Greek word psyche is often translated as ‘soul’ but again should not be readily understood to have the meaning the word had for the Greek philosophers. It usually means ‘life,’ or ‘vitality,’ or, at times, ‘the self.’”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1977), Vol. 25, p. 236.

What sort of people go to the Bible hell?

Does the Bible say that the wicked go to hell?

Ps. 9:17, KJ: “The wicked shall be turned into hell,* and all the nations that forget God.” (*“Hell,” 9:18 in Dy; “death,” TEV; “the place of death,” Kx; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Does the Bible also say that upright people go to hell?

Job 14:13, Dy: “[Job prayed:] Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me in hell,* and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a time when thou wilt remember me?” (God himself said that Job was “a man blameless and upright, fearing God and turning aside from bad.”—Job 1:8.) (*“The grave,” KJ; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Sheol,” AS, RS, NE, JB, NW.)

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Does anyone ever get out of the Bible hell?

Rev. 20:13, 14, KJ: “The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell* delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” (So the dead will be delivered from hell. Notice also that hell is not the same as the lake of fire but will be cast into the lake of fire.) (*“Hell,” Dy, Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” NE, AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Why is there confusion as to what the Bible says about hell?

“Much confusion and misunderstanding has been caused through the early translators of the Bible persistently rendering the Hebrew Sheol and the Greek Hades and Gehenna by the word hell. The simple transliteration of these words by the translators of the revised editions of the Bible has not sufficed to appreciably clear up this confusion and misconception.”—The Encyclopedia Americana (1942), Vol. XIV, p. 81.

Translators have allowed their personal beliefs to color their work instead of being consistent in their rendering of the original-language words. For example: (1) The King James Version rendered she’ohl´ as “hell,” “the grave,” and “the pit”; hai´des is therein rendered both “hell” and “grave”; ge´en·na is also translated “hell.” (2) Today’s English Version transliterates hai´des as “Hades” and also renders it as “hell” and “the world of the dead.” But besides rendering “hell” from hai´des it uses that same translation for ge´en·na. (3) The Jerusalem Bible transliterates hai´des six times, but in other passages it translates it as “hell” and as “the underworld.” It also translates ge´en·na as “hell,” as it does hai´des in two instances. Thus the exact meanings of the original-language words have been obscured.

Is there eternal punishment for the wicked?

Matt. 25:46, KJ: “These shall go away into everlasting punishment [“lopping off,” Int; Greek, ko´la·sin]: but the righteous into life eternal.” (The Emphatic Diaglott reads “cutting-off” instead of “punishment.” A footnote states: “Kolasin . . . is derived from kolazoo, which signifies, 1. To cut off; as lopping off branches of trees, to prune. 2. To restrain, to repress. . . . 3. To chastise, to punish. To cut off an individual from life, or society, or even to restrain, is esteemed as punishment;—hence has arisen this third metaphorical use of the word. The primary signification has been adopted, because it agrees better with the second member of the sentence, thus preserving the force and beauty of the antithesis. The righteous go to life, the wicked to the cutting off from life, or death. See 2 Thess. 1.9.”)

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

Jude 7, KJ: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.” (The fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah ceased burning thousands of years ago. But the effect of that fire has been lasting; the cities have not been rebuilt. God’s judgment, however, was against not merely those cities but also their wicked inhabitants. What happened to them is a warning example. At Luke 17:29, Jesus says that they were “destroyed”; Jude 7 shows that the destruction was eternal.)

What is the meaning of the ‘eternal torment’ referred to in Revelation?

Rev. 14:9-11; 20:10, KJ: “If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment [Greek, basa·ni·smou´] ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.” “And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

What is the ‘torment’ to which these texts refer? It is noteworthy that at Revelation 11:10 (KJ) reference is made to ‘prophets that torment those dwelling on the earth.’ Such torment results from humiliating exposure by the messages that these prophets proclaim. At Revelation 14:9-11 (KJ) worshipers of the symbolic “beast and his image” are said to be “tormented with fire and brimstone.” This cannot refer to conscious torment after death because “the dead know not any thing.” (Eccl. 9:5, KJ) Then, what causes them to experience such torment while they are still alive? It is the proclamation by God’s servants that worshipers of the “beast and his image” will experience second death, which is represented by “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone.” The smoke, associated with their fiery destruction, ascends forever because the destruction will be eternal and will never be forgotten. When Revelation 20:10 says that the Devil is to experience ‘torment forever and ever’ in “the lake of fire and brimstone,” what does that mean? Revelation 21:8 (KJ) says clearly that “the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone” means “the second death.” So the Devil’s being “tormented” there forever means that there will be no relief for him; he will be held under restraint forever, actually in eternal death. This use of the word “torment” (from the Greek ba´sa·nos) reminds one of its use at Matthew 18:34, where the same basic Greek word is applied to a ‘jailer.’—RS, AT, ED, NW.

What is the ‘fiery Gehenna’ to which Jesus referred?

Reference to Gehenna appears 12 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. Five times it is directly associated with fire. Translators have rendered the Greek expression ge´en·nan tou py·ros´ as “hell fire” (KJ, Dy), “fires of hell” (NE), “fiery pit” (AT), and “fires of Gehenna” (NAB).

Historical background: The Valley of Hinnom (Gehenna) was outside the walls of Jerusalem. For a time it was the site of idolatrous worship, including child sacrifice. In the first century Gehenna was being used as the incinerator for the filth of Jerusalem. Bodies of dead animals were thrown into the valley to be consumed in the fires, to which sulfur, or brimstone, was added to assist the burning. Also bodies of executed criminals, who were considered undeserving of burial in a memorial tomb, were thrown into Gehenna. Thus, at Matthew 5:29, 30, Jesus spoke of the casting of one’s “whole body” into Gehenna. If the body fell into the constantly burning fire it was consumed, but if it landed on a ledge of the deep ravine its putrefying flesh became infested with the ever-present worms, or maggots. (Mark 9:47, 48) Living humans were not pitched into Gehenna; so it was not a place of conscious torment.

At Matthew 10:28, Jesus warned his hearers to “be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.” What does it mean? Notice that there is no mention here of torment in the fires of Gehenna; rather, he says to ‘fear him that can destroy in Gehenna.’ By referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus here emphasizes that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects; thus there is no hope of resurrection for him. So, the references to the ‘fiery Gehenna’ have the same meaning as ‘the lake of fire’ of Revelation 21:8, namely, destruction, “second death.”

What does the Bible say the penalty for sin is?

Rom. 6:23: “The wages sin pays is death.”

After one’s death, is he still subject to further punishment for his sins?

Rom. 6:7: “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”

Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God’s personality?

Jer. 7:31: “They [apostate Judeans] have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart.” (If it never came into God’s heart, surely he does not have and use such a thing on a larger scale.)

Illustration: What would you think of a parent who held his child’s hand over a fire to punish the child for wrongdoing? “God is love.” (1 John 4:8) Would he do what no right-minded human parent would do? Certainly not!

By what Jesus said about the rich man and Lazarus, did Jesus teach torment of the wicked after death?

Is the account, at Luke 16:19-31, literal or merely an illustration of something else? The Jerusalem Bible, in a footnote, acknowledges that it is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.” If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there. Does that sound reasonable to you? If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith? But the Bible does not contradict itself.

What does the parable mean? The “rich man” represented the Pharisees. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who repented and became followers of Jesus. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances. Thus, the formerly despised ones came into a position of divine favor, and the formerly seemingly favored ones were rejected by God, while being tormented by the judgment messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised.—Acts 5:33; 7:54.

What is the origin of the teaching of hellfire?

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581) Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161) Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68) Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.
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Old 05-26-2004, 03:40 PM   #156
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did you type all that out

Thank you annj for shedding some light on this subject for me.
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Old 05-26-2004, 03:48 PM   #157
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its ok I was able to copy and paste it from my comp onto the forum.. which was pretty handy *l*
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Old 05-26-2004, 05:20 PM   #158
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Are you saying you don't like the concept or are you saying it isn't true?
Both.

But the truth is I shouldn't have commented at all because I have no interest in rehashing (for me) this debate.

I have long given up thinking about the after-life because I find it compromises this life too much.
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Old 05-27-2004, 03:22 PM   #159
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I have long given up thinking about the after-life because I find it compromises this life too much.
This makes complete sense.
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Old 05-28-2004, 03:48 PM   #160
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I like a pedro the lion lyric:

"my old man always said there would be no flames in hell.
just a front row ticket to watch your true love pack her things and drive away"

but on a serious not...I've done a lot of thinking about it. I'm no longer so accepting of the traditional view of it.
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Old 05-29-2004, 08:14 PM   #161
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My problem with the concept of hell is that the persons who never have access to missionaries or the bible are doomed to hell because they haven't come to God in some sort of religious teachings by the various religions. If you've lived all your life in a remote country such as some parts of Africa and even in some parts of the rest of the world, it happens that these humans never come into contact with what some consider mainstream religion. I refuse to believe these souls are condemmed to eternal damnation or suffering. I so admire missionaries and pray for their work, but I'm so aganist the "you're going to burn in hell if you don't believe what I do". This is one of the teaching's that drove me away from organized religion. But my Spirit is strong so I don't worry. But I work on it daily..
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Old 05-30-2004, 10:47 AM   #162
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i spose its because we want everyone to be saved. if your a christian you generally believe in a heaven and a hell and because you are overwhelmingly convinced of the existence of god due to the sheer size of The Bible and his lasting power you dont want to see any rightous person suffer in hell, you want jesus christ to save them as he has hopefully saved you. I dont know if God really does let rightous people go to such an awful place as hell if they do not believe in him but at the end of the day our thoughts are not Gods thoughts.
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Old 05-30-2004, 10:50 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees




Reading back over this thread, I keep coming back to one question: Why is it so hard for some people to respect different beliefs? So Christianity works for you -- that doesn't mean it works for everyone, why do you have to go around trying to convince other people that your religion is the "right" one? Why do you have to go halfway round the world to tell people that their beliefs are nonsense and they should convert to your religion? Why can't you just be happy that you've found a religion that works for you, accept that other people have beliefs that work for them and let them get on with their lives?
(whhoops sorry forgot to quote! but thats what my comments (above post) were about)
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Old 05-30-2004, 11:11 AM   #164
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my problem with a lot of christians is that they are constantly judging. CONSTANTLY. makes me ill

all they do is send people to hell in thier minds. Ph look, that guy is smoking if he died now he'd go to hell.
look. that guy is gay, if he died now he'd go to hell

and so forth

BULLSHIT

you can throw as many verses at me as you want put if the God you worship sends someone to eternal damnation for ridiculous little physical things like smoking or sexual lifestyle than thats not the God I worship.

and now some people are saying:
"poor basstrap, if he died now he'd go to hell"
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Old 05-30-2004, 11:57 AM   #165
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Bass trap I am not judging you.. but just want to give you a different perspective... not that God sends you to an eternal damnation for smoking.. and as biblical hell is the common grave of mankind where we all end up anyway when we die, good and bad so I can't tell you or even think you are going to some terrible punishment, when I don't believe it.

But on the subject of smoking you do have a free will that God gave you to make desicions for yourself.. and you will agree that even in the secular world without bringing God into it that smoking can be bad for you and can even kill you... do you ever think of it in the way that perhaps God would prefer you not to smoke, because he knows it could harm you and actually put you in hell(the grave) earlier than you deserve and he doesn't want that.. in fact he isnt condenming you but trying to help you ? But in the end he still leaves that desicion in your hands he is not going to force you into doing things you don't want
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