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Old 03-28-2004, 12:51 PM   #136
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Amazing what a simple and personal statement like "I love the Lord!" can be dragged into...
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Old 03-28-2004, 12:56 PM   #137
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Amazing what a simple and personal statement like "I love the Lord!" can be dragged into...
Well, that's FYM for ya. Actually, I think this thread originated in GIS so it's not that suprising it took a bit of a detour when it was moved to FYM.
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Old 03-28-2004, 01:17 PM   #138
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Yeah, I love this forum because you can truly fee your mind and say what you think. I hope I haven't made any enemies for staying true to what I believe even though it disagrees with several of you think. It's all in good fun...I love arguing.
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Old 05-25-2004, 12:33 AM   #139
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I just wanted to make one observation after reading this entire thread. I don't like to bring it up, as obviously no one else does in this thread eithr, but there is one very important part of the Christian world view and subsequently the evangelistic / missonairy efforts that has been neglected here. Christianity teaches in no uncertain terms that the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23) , and that without forgiveness through Jesus Chris alone- the result is hell. Hell is what not one whats to mention, but the simple reality of being a Christian is that you believe in hell as a real and literal place. With that in mind the missionary life of seeking to save, convert, or whatever term you want to use is not so self serving. What does a missonary gain by leading someone to Christ? There is without a doubt people making lots and lots of money off of religion, but your not going to find many doing so on the mission field in Africa. My point simply is if I believe in literal hell, and those seperated from God, will go there - than I think that answers the question of why missioanries cannot just leave these content, loving people alone.
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Old 05-25-2004, 05:30 PM   #140
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Goin' to hell! Nothing like fear to keep everyone in their place. Guilt is great isn't it?

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Old 05-25-2004, 06:07 PM   #141
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I've only read the first couple of pages of this! but when you blame God for not fixing poverty how do you know the devil doesnt have input in this world? a horrid thought indeed but thats what I have come to conclude...
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Old 05-25-2004, 06:41 PM   #142
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Goin' to hell! Nothing like fear to keep everyone in their place. Guilt is great isn't it?
Are you saying you don't like the concept or are you saying it isn't true?
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Old 05-26-2004, 01:26 AM   #143
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Actually you don't go to heaven for doing good deeds. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your savior. That is all. No more no less. It is quite easy. He paid for your sins in the cross, he suffered what we as sinners were suppossed to suffer and that is what love is all about.
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Old 05-26-2004, 04:35 AM   #144
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Goin' to hell! Nothing like fear to keep everyone in their place. Guilt is great isn't it?

I know I am going to get into more controversy here for some by stating that the bible does not teach that we will suffer in some burning torment

if you look into it is mis translated and actually refers to the grave, it says Jesus was in hell for three days. the bible also states that the wages sin pays is death.. not eternal torment.

what people are actually being saved from is not burning in hell
but the sentence of death that adam and eve brought on us, by disobeying God, in the garden of Eden they actually decided they
wanted to be independent, they thought they would be like him being able to know for themselves what was good or bad and wouldnt need God anymore.... God had warned them that this would bring death.. but satan being a liar and causing rebellion told them it wouldn't, and made it seem tempting that God was holding something back from them

But if God was supposedly holding back something good from them as the devil insinuated.. why was it afterwards that adam and Eve hid from God, feeling ashamed, they didn't act like they had discovered something wonderful after they had eaten from the tree, in fact the opposite.. they knew they had done wrong
and in the end who was telling the truth? did they die, yes they did eventually that was the sentence they brought on themselves and their offspring us there is nowhere in the beginning of the bible does it say they are sentenced to some burning hell

God acted to right that wrong by sending his son Jesus to save us from that... adam was a perfect man and only in Gods high standards a perfect man could buy back what adam lost by so Jesus sacrificed his life for us, he didnt have to he wanted too..

God could have destroyed adam and eve and satan there and then.. but his integrity was being called into question his souvergnity was also being brought up. If he had the right to rule over his creation. destroying them would not have answered those questions.. so he has let this period of time pass for that reason, he has let man go his own way and rule themselves to see if they could do a a good job of it.. so you can look around you and see the results for yourself.. if the world is a wonderful place to live in being independent from God.

and even though he knew that that we were imperfect and sinful because of what adam and eve done he lovingly give us that chance to prove that there would be ones could serve him, not through guilt or the fear of going to hell, but because we want to have a close relationship with him like a parent does with a child,

and though he knew not all will want to serve him and have that relationship with him, he still send his son for all mankind to have that chance, so he can fulfil that purpose he started of with having the earth populated with people who will want to serve him having love for each other and him, and where sickness and death
and suffering will be wiped out.. when he was on earth Jesus healed the sick fed the hungry brought back those from death.. showing that is what he will do in the future

God does not want people to worship him out of fear or being burned or tormented in hell, once more this has to do with the early christian church mixing pagan beliefs with what the bible says twisting it around and misrepresenting Gods true purpose
making him seem cruel and uncaring... another one of satans tactics to get people to turn away from God.. and reading through this forums he certainly does a good job

But the bible states that God is not far of from those who are sincerly searching for him.. so you can find him, and discover that he is indeed Love
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Old 05-26-2004, 08:22 AM   #145
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Hmm... so if people die on Earth and do not go to heaven, what happens to them then? Blind oblivion? In that case, I still don't see why fear still wouldn't come into it: worship God and go to heaven, or stop existing forever.

The whole idea of hell is overall so nasty it IMO could only have been invented by the human mind.

Regarding Adam and Eve, apple, etc., what I could never understand is, if God really didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why not put it somewhere safe beyond anyone's reach? To me it looks too much like Adam and Eve's exit from Eden was very much a part of the big plan. Or at least a test.
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:02 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by Saracene

Regarding Adam and Eve, apple, etc., what I could never understand is, if God really didn't want Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, why not put it somewhere safe beyond anyone's reach? To me it looks too much like Adam and Eve's exit from Eden was very much a part of the big plan. Or at least a test.
One of my theology profs taught that the eating of the apple was not the sin, it was sort of incidental. I don't remember exactly how she explained it, but she was reading from a much older version of the Bible (reading Hebrew and saying it outloud to us in English I think) and I guess Eve lies and says God said something that He never did and Adam just stands there and lets her lie about it. So according to her, they sinned, apple or not.
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:05 AM   #147
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humans were made for the earth, would you not agree.. God put us here to take care of the planet.. if he wanted us to be in heaven he would have created us there instead.

humans were suppose to live forever here on earth, but adam and eve scuppered this plan by their disobedience, maybe you could call it a test of their loyalty.. But God did not make them disobey him.. he told them what happened.. that they would die

he was not the one that put the temptation in front of them.. they were quite happy with this what is more he had provided plenty of other trees food ect so they wanted for nothing.. it was only satan the devil.. who put it into their head that God was witholding something from them.. God did not make satan do this, he like the rest of us have a free will, but Satan used this free will to try and claim that God has not the right to have a say over his creation, that the creation can decide for itself and can just be as good as God.. so God has let this time pass to prove his point, has satan claim that human can rule themselves without god proved true or false that is the big issue which is being answered right now.

and God was not asking adam and eve to do something imossible, sinful imperfect human afterwards faced harder tests and trials
there are many examples of those in the bible who proved faithful
even to death, who God remembers and will bring back.. he is the God of the living not of the dead....

and I know the new testiment speaks of those who have a heavenly calling.. which is true, those who follow in Jesus footsteps after his death will get raised to heaven, but that is a limited number who will rule with him in heaven in Gods kingdom to help restore this earth back to a paradise..

when you pray the our father prayer or Lords prayer and say Let your kindgom come let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.. that is what you are praying for.. Gods kingdom to come and it will remove satan and imperfect mans rule over the earth and be replaced with a righteous new goverment.. that will bring about real peace and security.. that is Gods plan for our future
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Old 05-26-2004, 09:21 AM   #148
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I grew up in the Australian outback. The Quaker missionaries visited regularly - and not just the impoverished Aboriginals but us well feed white kids too. If the object of a missionary is two fold, spiritual and physical, why did the missionaries preach to the white families too? We had food, clothing and shelter and were physically okay but yet the missionaries still felt the need to harass us too. (Not that I approve of them harassing the Aboriginals either) I grew up with children who were removed from their Aboriginal families by the churches and placed with white Christian families for what the missionaries considered to be their own good. I disagree with that sentiment. Fortunately this practice is now illegal.

I also worked for Oxfam for 5 years, here in Perth, not in remote areas. There is no shortage of people in Africa. We do not need to send any foreigners. 'Africans' are perfectly capable of planting their own grain and running their own lives in their own culturally significant way. Oxfam, as a few people have mentioned is indeed not aligned with any church. When I worked for Oxfam other charities such as World Vision would have fundraising events to send bibles to impoverished countries. Not food, clothing, grain, water purification systems, or animals to start breeding programmes but bibles. These charities did also send supplies too but why waste any resources at all on sending people and sending bibles?

I guess it depends on what you value. Iím all for trying to prevent death, illness, and poverty regardless of what religious flag the impoverished are flying.
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Old 05-26-2004, 11:29 AM   #149
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Annj, I too have heard about what you are saying regarding hell. I've never done any research on my own, however (I wouldn't even know where to start). But what I'm wondering, from what you have read/know, if you can answer this: the devil is typically thought to "live" or exist in hell.. if there is no hell, where does he exist?? Surely it's a different place than heaven? Or does this theory not allow room for the devil to exist?

Thanks,
Carrie
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Old 05-26-2004, 11:42 AM   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by beli
I guess it depends on what you value. Iím all for trying to prevent death, illness, and poverty regardless of what religious flag the impoverished are flying.


Reading back over this thread, I keep coming back to one question: Why is it so hard for some people to respect different beliefs? So Christianity works for you -- that doesn't mean it works for everyone, why do you have to go around trying to convince other people that your religion is the "right" one? Why do you have to go halfway round the world to tell people that their beliefs are nonsense and they should convert to your religion? Why can't you just be happy that you've found a religion that works for you, accept that other people have beliefs that work for them and let them get on with their lives?
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