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Old 09-10-2007, 05:50 PM   #166
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Zoney can you even believe some of the responses in this thread?

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Old 09-10-2007, 05:50 PM   #167
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Plenty of articles I've seen on this story, including the one I linked to earlier, have referred to the attendant's agreeing to let her back on after she pulled down her skirt, raised her shirt, and buttoned her shrug. I don't know whether that info came from her or the airline, but I haven't seen where she's denied it. So really none of us know what her outfit looked like when she first boarded, which makes evaulating the attendant's judgment presumptuous as well. It looked to me on the Today clip like she had the skirt pulled as low on her hips as it could possibly go, the shrug buttoned, and the shirt resting looser and higher on her torso rather than taut and stretched out--for that occasion, anyway. It's hard to analogize any man's clothing item I can think of--ultra-low-slung baggy pants?--to a hiked-up micromini where likelihood of underwear exposure is concerned. I don't know that that's really what the flight attendant was reacting to--like anyone else I can only guess, but that would be my guess.

Personally I wouldn't have been bothered by it, I agree it would be helpful if their clothing guidelines were more detailed, and I agree asking someone to just cover up with a blanket is preferable to kicking them off. But it's not news that airlines have policies concerning customer conduct--I don't sit down and read through them every time either, but to me it's just common knowledge and common sense that airplanes aren't a smart place to push the envelope. The reason I gave examples of employee dress codes earlier was simply to illustrate that you can't anticipate everything people might try to get away with. Passengers getting drunk during the course of the flight is reasonable cause for complaint, but that's different from boarding drunk. Parents letting their child throw stuff, continuously kick seats, or run freely down the aisle screaming is reasonable cause for complaint, but that's different from expecting a toddler to sit silently with their hands folded in their lap the entire time. I've never heard of a man trying to board an ordinary commercial flight shirtless. I've seen catalogs use "bikini top" to refer to everything from the kind that looks like pasties on a string to the 'tankini' kind that extends down to the bellybutton, probably hence the vague "we don't have a problem if it covers all the right spots" answer. I think some of these counterexamples may be sort of grasping at straws. Either airlines have the right, as fancy restaurants do, to impose broad expectations that customers' clothing not be "lewd" or "patently offensive" or they don't, and if they do, I just don't see where she has a case. Especially since, in the end, she was allowed back on after adjusting her clothing.

Frankly I find it hard to care much about this case from either end though.

And, yeah, what's the point of having your mother accompany you onto the Today Show (and apparently be the one to file your customer complaint, too) anyhow? Was that another one of those 'helicopter parent' things? That was just weird.
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:50 PM   #168
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Big Grin

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
If someone's size makes the next seat unusable we have a problem. Of course my post doesn't define the exact problem, my post isn't a legal document, it's just some meaningless post on the internet. I understand that situations are different, but better definition and actually having access to these regulations needs to be done, before such actions are made.
Most frequent fliers will tell you that they OFTEN have thought that the person next them has made their seat unusable. I have spent hours on planes with some guy's elbow in my ribs.

And the rules ARE accesible...the majority of tickets are purchased online. If you can purchase a ticket online, you can find the Contract of Carriage. If you purchase over the phone, they send you an itinerary with the Contract of Carriage included.
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:55 PM   #169
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
and some imbeciles here
You know better than this.
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Old 09-10-2007, 05:57 PM   #170
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Yolland spells out the argument clearly.
Notice I didn't personally label anybody an imbecile, only their line of thinking.

However your warning is acknowledged, and I will do my best to exercise a bit more restraint.

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Old 09-10-2007, 06:09 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally posted by zoney!


Most frequent fliers will tell you that they OFTEN have thought that the person next them has made their seat unusable. I have spent hours on planes with some guy's elbow in my ribs.
I'm not talking about being uncomfortable, I'm talking about someone who has to put the arm rest up in order to sit...
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Old 09-10-2007, 06:56 PM   #172
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this entire thing is silly.

it was silly for the airline to throw her off... her outfit is as offensive as that johnny cash avatar... i.e. not offensive whatsoever.

it's silly for us to debate it so vociferously.

this isn't some debate for women's rights or civil rights or lefts and rights or david wrights.

some schmuck got over zelous and took someone off a plane who he/she probably shouldn't have.

[/story]
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Old 09-10-2007, 10:29 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
The airline has a right to enforce their dress code and the Hooters' gal in question should understand that if she dresses like a skank, there may be repucussions, it's not her right do so, only unless she owns the airline-which she doesn't.
So she deserves to be publicly humiliated for wearing a short skirt while headed on a plane to a city where it's probably 110 degrees in the shade this time of year?

Lovely.
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Old 09-11-2007, 12:13 AM   #174
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Another perfect example of outdated, sexist thinking. Her Hooters job is completely irrelevant and the "skank" is hardly informative of anything. But it's exactly what we used to see 30 years ago in rape trials, and while most of us seem to have mentally progressed from that type of "thinking," there are clearly still some holdouts.
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Old 09-11-2007, 01:22 AM   #175
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It's funny how many have misconstrued my statements.

Never called the girl a skank.

I did say she dressed liked one, and that is all I said.

Her attitude in the press hasn't helped her cause, only maybe on Geraldo perhaps.

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Old 09-11-2007, 04:45 AM   #176
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I think the arguments regarding the airline's right to make judgement calls regarding dress etc are correct.

I just think that the flight attendant made a poor judgement call. A better call would have been a gentle request to use a blanket. The hauling off the plane, the being told to go home and change is a little much given the circumstances (despite the fact she was eventually let on).

It appears to me that Southwest decided blowing off her complaint was more cost effective than the disciplining/firing an employee over a one time incident. My experience with the airlines (and other large corporations) is that if they don't have to address your complaint they won't. (And by "have to" I mean, that not addressing the complaint will cost them money). They knew they were safe, legally, based on the Contract of Carriage and so they blew her off. It appears she thought that by seeking publicity she might be able to get the company to address her complaint in order to deflect the negative PR. It doesn't appear to have worked.

I doubt she set out to seek publicity. If that were her goal she would have worn something truly outlandish--like,say, a bikini, and started seeking publicity immediately, not waiting for two months.

I think she would have been better off letting it go though. On something this "mild" there is no way you'll ever win against a big company.
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:29 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
It's funny how many have misconstrued my statements.

Never called the girl a skank.

I did say she dressed liked one, and that is all I said.
"Your honour, I am not submitting that the complainant is a whore. Only that she behaved like one on the day in question."
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:37 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

Notice I didn't personally label anybody an imbecile, only their line of thinking.
Really?

She would probably think it would be ok to wear her work uniform to Mass, and claim discrimination if she were ask to leave and some imbeciles here would attempt to defend her 'right of expression'.

Where does it say anything like that here? Even if it was only our line of thinking it's still wrong, uncalled for, and rude.

Letting your nasty insults fly, then trying to revise your way out of it after the fact, doesn't wash. It's not just this thread, it's a consistent pattern. Posting in any thread just to insult people is juvenile and nasty, no?
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Old 09-11-2007, 07:46 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally posted by anitram
Another perfect example of outdated, sexist thinking. Her Hooters job is completely irrelevant and the "skank" is hardly informative of anything. But it's exactly what we used to see 30 years ago in rape trials, and while most of us seem to have mentally progressed from that type of "thinking," there are clearly still some holdouts.
I agree, and that's why this issue matters to me.
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Old 09-11-2007, 10:28 AM   #180
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OK so to sum it up, Sean is correct (as usual), and so is Headache. And siding with the corporate giant over a young girl who did nothing more than dress for hot weather is kind of like going to a casino and rooting for the dealer.
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