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Old 07-13-2006, 12:47 PM   #16
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Can it be classified as a hate crime?

from Wikipedia -

"The U.S. Congress defined in 1992 a hate crime as a crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals" (HR 4797). In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act added disabilities to the above list."
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Old 07-13-2006, 12:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by JMScoopy
by burning the american flag like the terrorists do?


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Old 07-13-2006, 12:49 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Can it be classified as a hate crime?

from Wikipedia -

"The U.S. Congress defined in 1992 a hate crime as a crime in which "the defendant's conduct was motivated by hatred, bias, or prejudice, based on the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation or gender identity of another individual or group of individuals" (HR 4797). In 1994, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act added disabilities to the above list."


nation-states are not individuals.
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Old 07-13-2006, 01:00 PM   #19
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Originally posted by Irvine511




nation-states are not individuals.
But "Americans" are individuals. And the flag does represent my national origin.

Also, I am curious - would it be considered a hate crime to burn the Rainbow Flag?
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Old 07-13-2006, 01:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON
Can it be classified as a hate crime?

Well if it's not a crime, it can't be a hate crime...
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Old 07-13-2006, 01:38 PM   #21
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I would never burn a flag, but I think it's a freedom people have. Many abhorrent things are perfectly legal. It's perfectly legal for the Ku Klux Klan to burn a cross. This stinks, but I think it should be legal.
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Old 07-13-2006, 01:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by AEON


But "Americans" are individuals. And the flag does represent my national origin.

Also, I am curious - would it be considered a hate crime to burn the Rainbow Flag?


there was in interesting hate crime thread a while back, and i'm actually fairly ambivalent on the issue of hate crimes. it's quite slippery, and for me, the true discrimination comes up when some groups are deemed worthy of hate crimes protection and other groups are not.

however, i believe one condition of a hate crime has to do with fear/intimidation -- it is reasonable to believe that if a group were to burn a rainbow flag in a public square that individual citizens could feel personally threatened, whereas the burning of the American flag cannot be considered an act of intimidation because it represents a nation and it doesn't seem reasonable that a protest involving flag burning has the same power to intimidate.

now, i wonder if we might not make distinctions within the range of flag burning activities -- intent matters. if i go to a synagogue and spray paint "Go Red Sox," i've commited an act of vandalism. if i go to a synagogue and spray paint, "Jews are Vermin," that's a totally different act altogether. yes, the end result is that i've vandalized, but it is the intent that is the crime. likewise, burning a flag at a protest rally, or on the steps of Congress, or in front of a federal building is one thing; just who are you trying to intimidate? which apparatus of government? if, however, i were to burn a flag on the lawn of a veteran or Congressman, that might be something else.

and i have seen protest rallies in other countries where American flags have been burned in front of my eyes. and, yes, i felt intimidated, and i dared not open my mouth lest my accent give me away.
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Old 07-13-2006, 03:01 PM   #23
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Well if it's not a crime, it can't be a hate crime...
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:24 PM   #24
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I don't think it's at all fair to label people who wouldn't burn a flag or who are upset by it "jingoistic".

There are so many ways, productive ways in which to show discontent with your country-but then again those require much more effort than a match does. Vote, volunteer, join an organization, a peaceful protest..just to name a few.

I am not a blind patriot by any means, but I would never burn a flag. I don't think an amendment is necessary and I think there are so many other important priorities we should have- but it is ultimately lazy to burn a flag, and what does it really accomplish?
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:44 PM   #25
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I really don't see what the issue is here, given that at the end of the day, a flag is just a piece of fabric. If someone burnt the New Zealand flag, I wouldn't care. I'd wonder why they'd want to burn a symbol of my country, but it's just some fabric and they can burn it if they'd like.

Aren't there more important things to worry about?
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Old 07-13-2006, 05:48 PM   #26
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A flag may be just a piece of fabric but it represents much more.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:23 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
I really don't see what the issue is here, given that at the end of the day, a flag is just a piece of fabric. If someone burnt the New Zealand flag, I wouldn't care. I'd wonder why they'd want to burn a symbol of my country, but it's just some fabric and they can burn it if they'd like.

Aren't there more important things to worry about?
That's how I feel about this.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Axver
I really don't see what the issue is here, given that at the end of the day, a flag is just a piece of fabric. If someone burnt the New Zealand flag, I wouldn't care. I'd wonder why they'd want to burn a symbol of my country, but it's just some fabric and they can burn it if they'd like.

Aren't there more important things to worry about?
Me too. Someone could burn our flag if they wanted to. So what? I'd take note of the fact that someone apparently dislikes us a great deal and try to figure out. Mostly it's a pretty dumb thing to do since it doesn't further communication but if someone has the need to get rid of some aggresions that way so be it. Rather a piece of cloth than someones head.
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Old 07-13-2006, 06:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by MacHat


That's how I feel about this.


i do too.

but, in fairness, Americans feel differently about their flag than most other nations feel about their own flags. one is neither better nor worse than the next, but it is a legitimate cultural difference. many Americans feel as if the flag stands not for the nation itself or the American people but for the ideas that the country was founded upon -- liberty, democracy, etc.

i fully understand how someone who isn't an American would see this differently, but i hope this explains some of the more passionate reactions many Americans have to flag burning, and also why burning the American flag is such a potent, perhaps incendiary, form of political protest.
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Old 07-13-2006, 07:03 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
A flag may be just a piece of fabric but it represents much more.
A lot of things represent much more. Shall we ban burning anything that's symbolic of something more? If not, where shall we draw the line? Why is a nation's flag more special than something else?
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