Flag burning??? - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-06-2005, 02:25 PM   #76
War Child
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 706
Local Time: 11:03 AM
I'm never prouder to be an American than when I see someone burning the American flag without consequence. Those who would take that right away really don't have a clue.
__________________

__________________
LPU2 is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 03:07 PM   #77
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


Hate crimes are NOT thought crimes. Hate crimes are hate actions, and are punished accordingly.

Melon
No. Assault and battary is a crime "of action" and should be punished accordingly. Regardless of perpetrator or victim - people on people crime should be punished.

Adding on a "hate crime" count is to punish a separate thought behind the action. That is troubling. That is 1984.
__________________

__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 03:35 PM   #78
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,645
Local Time: 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


No. Assault and battary is a crime "of action" and should be punished accordingly. Regardless of perpetrator or victim - people on people crime should be punished.

Adding on a "hate crime" count is to punish a separate thought behind the action. That is troubling. That is 1984.
If there is an attack and the attacker leaves derogatory words left at the scene, then there is sense of premeditation and should be tried as a hate crime.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 06-06-2005, 03:53 PM   #79
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


If there is an attack and the attacker leaves derogatory words left at the scene, then there is sense of premeditation and should be tried as a hate crime.
no, then it should be treated as a premeditated crime, which is more severe than aggravated assault. i agree with nbcrusader on this one. as much as i hate bigroty and sympathize with the intent, the concept is flawed.
__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 03:54 PM   #80
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
No. Assault and battary is a crime "of action" and should be punished accordingly. Regardless of perpetrator or victim - people on people crime should be punished.

Adding on a "hate crime" count is to punish a separate thought behind the action. That is troubling. That is 1984.
Well, let's follow that logic. Murder is tried and convicted, according to several criteria, including whether it was premeditated or not. Premeditated murder is given the most severe penalty. Is that "1984"? Is that punishing a "thought crime"?

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 04:20 PM   #81
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,645
Local Time: 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal


no, then it should be treated as a premeditated crime, which is more severe than aggravated assault. i agree with nbcrusader on this one. as much as i hate bigroty and sympathize with the intent, the concept is flawed.
Ok I could have used different terminology. Premedition would be impossible to prove because many hate crimes would happen to the first "target" and not necessarily a specific individual. Now I totally agree that the term hate crime has been over used. When a white man and a black get in a fight it isn't exactly motivated by race, but if there is significant evidence that race, religion, sexuality played a role then the crime needs to be charged as a hate crime.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 06-06-2005, 07:14 PM   #82
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon
Well, let's follow that logic. Murder is tried and convicted, according to several criteria, including whether it was premeditated or not. Premeditated murder is given the most severe penalty. Is that "1984"? Is that punishing a "thought crime"?
An age old distinction between acts that result in death of a person, intentional acts that result in the death of a person and intentional acts that intentionally result in the death of a person.
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 07:15 PM   #83
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
An age old distinction between acts that result in death of a person, intentional acts that result in the death of a person and intentional acts that intentionally result in the death of a person.
Well, those are "thought crimes," are they not? Or is the biggest issue of all the desire to maintain the previous status quo? I know America, traditionally, has an aversion to change of any kind.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 09:46 PM   #84
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
U2DMfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: It's Inside A Black Hole
Posts: 6,637
Local Time: 12:03 PM
So if a man beating down another man with intent and malice is premeditated battery (whatever the actual charge may be)

then why does it need to be qualifed if the same act occurs, and it occurs because of bigotry? Why is it not the same eact charge?

Why is bigotry with violence more distinguishable than mere violence? Why is there a qualification?

Just asking. To me, I would agree with NBCrusader at this point.

And perhaps I am ignorant to the reasons for the qualifications of premeditation, be it because of revenge or bigotry, shouldn't the law just prosecute them the same way?
__________________
U2DMfan is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 10:24 PM   #85
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by melon


The Bible is a piece of paper. Pardon me while I wipe my ass with the Book of Leviticus.

Melon
Melon, the Bible is not the paper that holds it. Go ahead and wipe your ass with the entire thing if you need to.

That book you hold in your hands is not sacred. It's just paper.

However, the words inside and the message they deliver are sacred and very wise.

Wiping your ass with the paper that it is printed on won't make it less wise or life-changing.
__________________
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
Old 06-06-2005, 10:37 PM   #86
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Well, I hope you realize I was being sarcastic. I own about three or four Bibles of various translations, including a copy of "The Message," a text on the "Dead Sea Scrolls" and the Gnostic "Dag Hammadi."

I'm also pleased that I found an online source for the surviving remnants of the Zoroastrian "Avesta." I'm very interested in religion, in spite of my displeasure with conservative-to-mainstream Christianity and my general malaise with mainstream-to-liberal Christianity.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-07-2005, 04:53 AM   #87
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,645
Local Time: 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by U2DMfan
So if a man beating down another man with intent and malice is premeditated battery (whatever the actual charge may be)

then why does it need to be qualifed if the same act occurs, and it occurs because of bigotry? Why is it not the same eact charge?

Why is bigotry with violence more distinguishable than mere violence? Why is there a qualification?

Just asking. To me, I would agree with NBCrusader at this point.

And perhaps I am ignorant to the reasons for the qualifications of premeditation, be it because of revenge or bigotry, shouldn't the law just prosecute them the same way?
Take a look at the differences between vandalism spray painting your name on a billboard and spray painting racial slurs on someone's house and threatening them to leave. If we didn't have the qualifications, then they would both just be vandalism.
__________________
BVS is online now  
Old 06-08-2005, 11:25 AM   #88
Refugee
 
bcrt2000's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Toronto
Posts: 2,271
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LivLuvAndBootlegMusic


To some people, it's much much more. Say you had an urn with the ashes of a close relative. Would you think "it's just some ash" and not be extra careful?
its kinda sad in some ways.. because once we start loving "the flag"... then we become those who say "my country! right or wrong!"
__________________
bcrt2000 is offline  
Old 06-08-2005, 09:04 PM   #89
Blue Crack Addict
 
nbcrusader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 22,071
Local Time: 10:03 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Take a look at the differences between vandalism spray painting your name on a billboard and spray painting racial slurs on someone's house and threatening them to leave. If we didn't have the qualifications, then they would both just be vandalism.
And they are both just vandelism. Otherwise, you have begun a process of judging speech.

Is that what you want?
__________________
nbcrusader is offline  
Old 06-08-2005, 09:21 PM   #90
Acrobat
 
echo0001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: WV-USA
Posts: 349
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Actually, in many cases you have a process of judging intentions--as in murder cases.

Spray painting graffiti on someone's house because you're sixteen and stupid and can't come up with anything better to do with your free time is one thing.

Spray painting graffiti on someone's house because you are a hateful racist bigot who wishes to intimidate, terrify, and threaten is entirely different in intention.
__________________

__________________
echo0001 is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com