Flag burning??? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-04-2005, 09:53 PM   #46
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:24 PM
I've always found it ironic when people defend the flag, but not the freedoms of which it is supposed to be symbolic.
__________________

__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 09:56 PM   #47
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
fuckers.

but not criminals.

youre spewing hate about the bible, thats very offensive to some christians i can imagine. but i dont see anyone coming to arrest you. fuck, the moderators arent even censoring you for it.
"Hate speech" is constitutionally protected. "Hate actions" are not.

If the "good Reverend" wants to say nasty things about homosexuals, he can. If he wants to demonstrate against them, he can with the proper permits. But he crosses a fine line between "hate speech" and "hate action" when he burns gay symbols, including effigies. That's tantamount to "inciting violence," which is illegal.

If I want to say nasty things about the Bible, I'm constitutionally protected to do so. If I want to organize a protest in front of a church, burn effigies of Christians during the services, and set fire to the Bible while loudly chanting anti-Christian slogans, that's tantamount to "inciting violence," which would be illegal.

I don't know why these concepts are so difficult for many people in this thread. It's either "all" or "nothing," when, in fact, the laws are quite nuanced on this subject and rightfully so.

Melon
__________________

__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 09:59 PM   #48
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 05:24 PM
so burning the American flag *isn't* inciting violence toward America/Americans? now i'm confused.

and hate speech is protected, but hate actions such as chanting hateful slogans are not?

so, saying hateful things in a level tone is fine, but saying them in a sing-song way isnt? saying hateful things in your "inside voice" is fine, but shouting them isnt?

pardon me for not grasping this concept
__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:06 PM   #49
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
so burning the American flag *isn't* inciting violence toward America/Americans? now i'm confused.

The burning of the flag is generally a political statement, although I assume it can be used to inflame hatred of America. It has been determined (so far) to be protected political speech, which does not target a person or persons, but a political symbol. On a whole, people who burn American flags are doing it as protest against American policy, not Americans.

We have a history of burning a lot of things in this country.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:06 PM   #50
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
so burning the American flag *isn't* inciting violence toward America/Americans? now i'm confused.
No. Burning a flag in America is usually done by people who protest the government or its policies. Again, protest against the government has a long history of being constitutionally protected, which is likely why flag burning has consistently been upheld to be part of our First Amendment rights.

Now when people in the Middle East burn American flags, I'd agree with you that it is motivated by hatred and the desire to incite violence against Americans. However, no constitutional amendment in the world can make it illegal for foreigners to burn an American flag on foreign soil. That's completely outside of our jurisdiction.

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:09 PM   #51
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 05:24 PM
How does the government know what your intent was when you burned the flag?

If you burn a flag and scream Fuck America while doing so, can you be arrested?

this really is news to me, honestly.
__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:09 PM   #52
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,258
Local Time: 04:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
i do know what its like to be discriminated against. hey, wanna hear a jew joke? whats the difference between a jew and an apple pie? an apple pie doesnt scream when you put it in the oven.
Wow.... Yeouch.

Angela
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:11 PM   #53
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:24 PM
The Jews are historically one of the most discriminated-against people in the world. I can't even imagine the horrific fear that they went through during WWII.

Gypsies, homosexuals and Catholics who wouldn't tow the Nazi party line didn't have it real easy, either.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:13 PM   #54
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
How does the government know what your intent was when you burned the flag?

If you burn a flag and scream Fuck America while doing so, can you be arrested?

The government basically has to assume political speech as your intent. I also do not think you can get arrested for screaming Fuck America while burning a flag; however, you may get your ass kicked.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:14 PM   #55
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,258
Local Time: 04:24 PM
Mmhm. A truly frightening time...I don't know how people managed to make it through that.

That Jew "joke" disturbs me more and more each time I read it. Seriously, that is just not cool. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, VertigoGal .

Angela
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:14 PM   #56
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
How does the government know what your intent was when you burned the flag?

If you burn a flag and scream Fuck America while doing so, can you be arrested?

this really is news to me, honestly.
You still can't be arrested for flag burning. "Fuck America" is still constitutionally protected free speech as a protest against the government. Again, the difference is that it is speech directed towards the government, not at a specific individual or ethnicity. If you threaten the President in your protest, you'll get arrested; but that's because you've switched from a generic protest against the government to a direct threat against a specific individual.

Speech against non-living, generic entities: protected

Speech against individuals or ethnicities: not-protected, if it incites violence

Melon
__________________
melon is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:17 PM   #57
Rock n' Roll Doggie
FOB
 
VertigoGal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: I'm never alone (I'm alone all the time)
Posts: 9,860
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by BonosSaint



The government basically has to assume political speech as your intent. I also do not think you can get arrested for screaming Fuck America while burning a flag; however, you may get your ass kicked.
or a good mowing over with a car, if you happen to be on the street.

honestly though, im still bent on the slogan thing. how is level-toned, "inside voices" hateful speech perfectly fine by the constitution, yet the same hate when said in cute little slogan at the top of your lungs is a crime?

or did i read that wrong?

edit: ok, melon, your above post did somewhat answer the question in my post, even if i dont necessarily agree with it.

the whole thing seems so subject to interpretation
__________________
VertigoGal is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:18 PM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
Mmhm. A truly frightening time...I don't know how people managed to make it through that.

That Jew "joke" disturbs me more and more each time I read it. Seriously, that is just not cool. I'm sorry you've had to deal with that, VertigoGal .

Angela
Reminds me of the sick and insensitive jokes that happened after the David Koresh/Waco thing. I always felt like socking the joke teller in the mouth.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:19 PM   #59
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:24 PM
I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. Please clarify.
__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
Old 06-04-2005, 10:20 PM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BonosSaint's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,566
Local Time: 06:24 PM
Sorry. My post above was directed to VertigoGal.
__________________

__________________
BonosSaint is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:24 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com