Fighting terrorism: a double standard?

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Wild Angel

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Recently, Russian President Vladimir Putin has complained that the US, and countries who support the US have encouraged him to 'negotiate' with the terrorists instead of using force. He says, and I agree, that this is a double standard since the US believes in going after the terrorists. Putin said 'why don't you 'negotiate' with Osama bin Laden?' You cannot negotiate with people willing or even hoping to die. With this new breed of war there has to be a new way of fighting it. Putin has complained that the US and the UK are harboring Chechen terrorists with ties to the Moscow theater incident, giving them political asylum on the grounds they'd be tortured if returned to Russia. He asks, and so do I, wouldn't we want Russia to extridite a 9-11 terrorist? Russia sees their problems with terrorism as much the same as the US and that we need to be united in this. Here are several articles on the subject:

http://www.iht.com/articles/538466.html

http://www.sgvtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,205~24512~2397647,00.html

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040912/wl_afp/russia_attacks_us_040912081412

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/EdmontonSun/News/2004/09/13/627333.html

http://www.timesdispatch.com/servle...TD_BasicArticle&c=MGArticle&cid=1031777896955
 
I think we are over-simplifying the issue.

Perhaps it depends on the group you characterize as "terrorists". If it is a network of like-minded individuals, it is hard to negotiate. If it is a body of people governed by "elected" representatives, negotiations may be more successful.
 
But Russia has evidence the Chechens are being helped by Al Queida, and their methods are much the same.
 
Well even Terrorism has allways bin a double standard,
Our beloved former president Clinton used Terror-tactics against Iraq several times.
Everyone remembers the Terrorism on the Achille Lauro, a horrible thing where the terrorists murdered a crippled American, noone remembers that the terrorists called it a revenge for a US terror strike (Tunis bombing 75 people killed - supported by the US secretary of state) or the Beirut car bombing (meintioned on another thread allready)
In the movie "Rambo" you can see the glorification of anti-Russian terrorists as freedomfighters - the bush administration supported anti-Iranian terrorists...
...and in the end anyone is surprised that there are double standards in fighting terrorism?

Btw. Putin has also at least "interesting" ideas how to fight terrorism. For example:
-Regional governors will be nominated in the future by the head of state rather than elected

As mentioned on another thread, the U.S. Army manuals, define Terrorism by:
"the calculated use of violence or the threat of violence to attain goals that are political, religious or ideological in nature...through intimidation, coercion or instilling fear."

So... Invading a country for a regime change is definetly violence to attain goals that are political or ideological!

*sarcasm on*
But of course it's a good thing if we use violence to gain our goals.
*sarcasm off*
 
It's a bit like minor surgery -- it's only minor when it happens to someone else.
 
What is terrorism? Everyone will have their own definitions of it. :ohmy:

To inflict terror (the wantom destruction of Life along with the emotional scars that it leaves behind) is rampant all over the world.

What is the saddest and most aggravating thing for me is that sometimes thw WORST TERRORISM doesn't get sufficiently reported by the media because it doesn't fit into their overall propaganda purposes. :tsk:

What am I talking about - how about the massive destructive size and scope of the AIDS pandemic? Is that not wantom(unnecessary) destruction of lives and communities?

We just passed the 3rd anniversary of 9/11 the other day. In that unfortunate incident, almost 3,000 people lost their lives in one day. In Africa, the world loses TWO 9/11's FULL OF INNOCENT PEOPLE EVERYDAY and hardly anyone in the media and our societies notice. :eyebrow:

Every year, Africa loses 2,372,500 people unnecessarily to AIDS. Why don't we all do more to alleviate these people's suffering?

Is it because they are not a "hot political item" that we can debate about and end up re-inforcing our political points of view?

Their lives are as precious as anyone's in NYC, Beslan (a lot of African children are left orphaned by AIDS with no one to care for them), Jakarta, etc yet the terrorism that they must suffer under - the terrorism of extreme poverty and disease - is largely forgotten in the developed world. :(

I think this thread is thought-provoking and a good idea. I just felt it in my heart to re-emphasize that there are many people around the world who suffer unjustly.

And the majority of them suffer in places like Africa and the Indian subcontinent, not always from the barrel of a gun or bombs, but from the terrorism of not having clean water to drink, food to eat, medicine to save their lives. :angel:

Those are the innocent souls that I can't get out of my consciousness. :hug:
 
Terrorism is generally accepted to be guerilla activities using weapons with the intent to inflict bodily harm to random people and places in order to try to scare someone into giving you what you want. Thus the name "TERRORism"

I'm afraid Jamila's defintion is one of the biggest stretches I've ever seen :eyebrow: While we do all care about the AIDS victims in Africa there is no way to compare not saving every single one of them or giving every cent of everyone's money to them "terrorism." If that's the case, then are we terrorists for leaving neighbors, friends and relatives without health care? Is it 'terrorism' not to take home every homeless person you see? I'm sitting her flat broke, and my relatives don't give a rat's ass. Are they terrorists?

While the AIDs problem in Africa is dear to your heart, there are also people all over the world sick, dying, living in substandard conditions, even right here in America. There are also Americans who cannot afford drugs for AIDS or other illnesses. There is no way even the richest or the best intended person could ever solve all the ills and problems of the world. Doing nothing to help someone could be described as apathy, neglect, indifference, uncaring. But NOT terrorism!

I've been trying to stay outa here but I couldn't let that go:crack:

What is happening in Russia IS terrorism, and they have every right to deal with it in ways needed to protect themselves and prevent future attacks.
 
it's a difficult situation really

Putin should talk with the chechen representatives
at the same time you can't expect him to just wait while on regular basis chechen terrorists slaughter russian kids/parents/grandparents etc

so it's a tricky situation
 
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and worst of all, you can't let them think their terror tactics worked in bringing you to the table!
 
it would be at least at worse when the terrorism would be used to fit your personal agenda
 
U2Kitten said:
Doing nothing to help someone could be described as apathy, neglect, indifference, uncaring. But NOT terrorism!

I don't like the apathy, neglect, indifference and uncaring attitudes that people have towards the emergency in Africa being called terrorism either U2Kitten.

Sorry Jamila, but this definition does not describe the inactiveness of people:
Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons

I do understand Jamila's frustration at the sleeping people though. While there are problems that need to be solved everywhere - the loss of so many people every day - day in and out - just can't be compared to these problems.

We lost 3000 people on September 11th. More than twice that every day die from AIDS in Africa. Seriously - sit back and imagine that amount of people. It is really a huge emergency that cannot compare to the current problems in our society. I understand that you (U2Kitten) are feeling the effects of some bad economic troubles - but even if you ended up homeless for awhile there will be people to take care of you. Our society would not let you starve or let your children live on the streets.

U2Kitten said:
I've been trying to stay outa here but I couldn't let that go:crack:

It's nice to see you here U2Kitten. :D
 
While I respect the fact that the "terrorism" I'm talking about does not fit nicely into the dictionary's definition of "terrorism", this same idea has been alluded by Bono from something Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary of State said in 2002 "The war against terrorism is tied up in the war against poverty".

The two are intrinsically linked.

It's sad that we can't make the big links in our ways of thinking, stretch our worldviews to consider the broader ramifications of a problem.

I'm simply stating that I have as much concern for those in our world who suffer silently and die in some forgotten corner of the world from totally preventable causes as much as I would for someone's unnecessary sudden loss of life - is that too much for others to accept and understand?

You know, we don't always have to agree in these threads, but we could at least try to LISTEN to each other and FEEL WITH OUR HEARTS what each other is trying to say instead of jumping on each other.

And as for being poor, right now I work an $8 p/hr job, 30 hrs p/wk, with no health benefits and no husband or family member to help me out. :ohmy:

One doesn't have to do a lot of math to see that I'm as poor if not poorer than anyone else here. But I maintain a friendly and positive attitude in spite of my economics. It CAN BE DONE.

Anyway, sorry, wild honey, I was only pointing out a tragic preventable situation for millions of people in the world. I hoped to would add not detract from your original idea.

I wish everyone well. :hug:
 
I meant Wild Angel. :wink:

I was a bit disappointed having to write that post. :(

That's one reason why I try to stay out of FYM - posting here too often actually brings me down and I PREFER TO BE ELEVATED! :bono: :heart: :heart: ;)
 
The poverty- terrorism thing is not really clicking with this. None of the poor subsaharan African people are terrorists. The guy who flew the plane into the WTC was the son of a wealthy surgeon. Bin Laden is a multimillionaire. The problem with the stop poverty stop terrorism thing is that the people who are the terrorists do not like or want a lifestyle or society like ours, and would get even madder and think us arrogant for trying to force it on them. Most of the poorest people in the world are not terrorists. Terrorism is a philosophy of certain extremist groups.
 
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BostonAnne said:
I understand that you (U2Kitten) are feeling the effects of some bad economic troubles - but even if you ended up homeless for awhile there will be people to take care of you. Our society would not let you starve or let your children live on the streets.

The biggest reason for my economic troubles was some poor financial management and bad descisions :uhoh: :sigh: besides living in an area with a high cost of living. My relatives would not take care of me if I were homeless, welfare only helps for awhile. Homeless shelters can only do so much. We have such a long way to go to get everyone out of poverty, it's really sad and depressing to think about, so many desperate people, all over the world :( If I were rich I'd help people, no one would have to even ask.

Thanks for your heartfelt responses on the African situation :hug:



It's nice to see you here U2Kitten. :D

Thanks! :wave:
 
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Jamila said:
While I respect the fact that the "terrorism" I'm talking about does not fit nicely into the dictionary's definition of "terrorism", this same idea has been alluded by Bono from something Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary of State said in 2002 "The war against terrorism is tied up in the war against poverty".

The two are intrinsically linked.

I agree with you that by helping Africa now, we may be protecting ourselves from future terrorists.
 
With respect to both of you, I don't see that as preventing terrorism, since those African countries are not prone to terrorist activity. They never have been, it's not their culture or their ideals like it is in some middle eastern countries. But we need to help them anyway, because they need it.
 
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Jamila said:
Anyway, sorry, wild angel, I was only pointing out a tragic preventable situation for millions of people in the world. I hoped to would add not detract from your original idea.

I wish everyone well. :hug:

Jamila, I always appreciate someone else posting about the emergency in Africa. It is frustrating to watch the anger and disgust that takes place when people are killed by terrorists and not see the same concern placed on the thousands that are lost each day that could be saved if we made it happen. In my book - it all makes my disgusted and angry.
 
It's hard. Putin shouldn't deal with terrorists, but he's in a pickle with Chechnya. Meeting with officials from Chechnya wouldn't be a bad idea, and it's not likely he'd be meeting with terrorists anyway. As for any Al Qaeda activities, if they can figure out a way to stop this, more power to them.
 
U2Kitten said:
With respect to both of you, I don't see that as preventing terrorism, since those African countries are not prone to terrorist activity. They never have been, it's not their culture or their ideals like it is in some middle eastern countries. But we need to help them anyway, because they need it.

I hope African countries continue to not be prone to terrist activity. There are millions of children in Africa that have lost their parents. As they learn that their loss could have been prevented - who knows what anger they will harbor towards us. Who knows if a terrorist group will go to Africa and recruit some angry assistants.

You are right that this isn't something to argue about though - we need to help them anyway, because the need it.
 
I saw a list of changes Putin is making. Some were very disturbing, especially doing away with elections on a local level and installing Kremlin appointees.

An interesting article by a Chechnya doctor and peace activist. Putin inherited the situation, but his response will only strengthen the resistance (much like Iraq)

http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=538399.html

The scenes at Beslan weren't so unfamiliar
Khassan Baiev The Boston Globe
Monday, September 13, 2004


Violence begets violence

BOSTON The pictures of the Russian children being carried out of the school in Beslan, their naked bodies splattered with blood, filled me with sorrow and anger. No excuse exists for the slaughtering of innocent civilians. No excuse exists for taking children hostage, blowing up planes or suicide bombings. Those responsible for such carnage have forfeited their right to be called human beings.

What made those scenes from Beslan so anguishing for me was that I had seen them all before. As a wartime surgeon in Chechnya I had treated the broken bodies of children - the young girl whose parents were blown up by a bomb before her eyes, the little boy whose hair turned white overnight, small bodies pierced by hundreds of pieces of shrapnel. And everywhere blood.

I do not claim to understand the mentality of a terrorist willing to sacrifice children. However, as a Chechen and a doctor with firsthand experience of the war, I can offer some context into what turns ordinary people into extremists willing to commit such atrocities.

We have been fighting Russia on and off for 400 years. Our nation is small, a third the size of Belgium, with a prewar population of one million. In the recent 10-year war with Russia, 250,000 people died, fully a quarter of the population. Of those deaths, an estimated 42,000 were children. And our children are still dying, from gunfire, from mines, from an unexplained illness resulting from the contaminated environment caused by the war.

History has taught us to fear Russia. The belief of most Chechens that the Kremlin would like to eliminate them is fueled by the deportations. In the 19th century the czarist government exiled us to Turkey, Jordan and Syria. In 1944, Stalin herded our whole population into cattle cars and shipped us to Siberia. A third of us perished on the journey or in the harsh conditions of exile.

We had hoped that with the breakup of the Soviet Union we might at long last attain independence from Russia. We are Muslims. We speak a different language. We have different traditions. However, our dream of self-rule evaporated when Boris Yeltsin invaded our country with a force of 300,000 Russian soldiers on Dec. 11, 2003.

For the past 10 years Chechnya has been occupied by a foreign invader. Occupation breeds violence, which invites lawlessness on both sides. The abuses of civilians by Russian soldiers have been documented by various human rights organizations - Physicians for Human Rights, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the Russian human rights organization Memorial. Young Russian soldiers are also dying unnecessarily.

Ordinary Chechens share my sorrow at the terrible carnage at the school in Beslan. But they are also fearful, knowing that they will be blamed. They are bracing themselves for reprisals. The Kremlin spin doctors have done a good job of casting us as international terrorists masterminded by Muslim extremists from the Middle East. Sadly, most people believe the propaganda, even though we do not know the ethnic composition of the hostage takers in Beslan. It does not matter. The school siege resulting in the deaths of hundreds of children was a heinous crime whoever was responsible.
...
 
Wild Angel said:
Recently, Russian President Vladimir Putin has complained that the US, and countries who support the US have encouraged him to 'negotiate' with the terrorists instead of using force. He says, and I agree, that this is a double standard since the US believes in going after the terrorists. Putin said 'why don't you 'negotiate' with Osama bin Laden?' You cannot negotiate with people willing or even hoping to die. With this new breed of war there has to be a new way of fighting it. Putin has complained that the US and the UK are harboring Chechen terrorists with ties to the Moscow theater incident, giving them political asylum on the grounds they'd be tortured if returned to Russia. He asks, and so do I, wouldn't we want Russia to extridite a 9-11 terrorist? Russia sees their problems with terrorism as much the same as the US and that we need to be united in this.

i fully support the war on terrorism... but if i had to pick something about it that i had a problem with, this would be it. if it's going to be a global war on all terror, then it has to be a global war on all terror. if the chechen's want to attack targets of the russian military and/or government, well that's one thing... to me that isn't terrorism; it's revolution. and i've got no problem what-so-ever with the people rising as one and revolting against what they feel is unjust. but the second they start blowing up kids, or people in a theatre, then they lose all sympathy for their cause from me. then they're simply terrorist scum and should be taken out swiftly and soundly.
 
Re: Re: Fighting terrorism: a double standard?

Headache in a Suitcase said:


if it's going to be a global war on all terror, then it has to be a global war on all terror.

:up: Too bad that the international comunity never was able to define "Terror" because every nation wanted to exclude the terror they support from this list
 
verte76 said:
It's hard. Putin shouldn't deal with terrorists, but he's in a pickle with Chechnya. Meeting with officials from Chechnya wouldn't be a bad idea, and it's not likely he'd be meeting with terrorists anyway. As for any Al Qaeda activities, if they can figure out a way to stop this, more power to them.

Even though you'd be talking with diplomats instead of terrorists, the message is still there that you were brought to your knees and screamed OKAY LET'S TALK! which would mean terror tactics appear to be successful and the world can't let that happen. Here's a link on how the Chechens are trying to get the west to force Putin into talks:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14638167.htm

There was a great story in the newspaper today about the history behind this, but I can't find an online link to it. It told how Yeltsin sent in troops to quell and uprising in the latter 90's. The Chechens fought the Russian army to a standstill, but nothing was solved. Since then they have used terrorism to try to achieve their break from Russia and that is the WRONG thing to do. Besides the school, theater, subway and concert, they also bombed a hospital for disabled veterans! You CANNOT let people like that using ways like that prevail in any way.

Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


i fully support the war on terrorism... but if i had to pick something about it that i had a problem with, this would be it. if it's going to be a global war on all terror, then it has to be a global war on all terror. if the chechen's want to attack targets of the russian military and/or government, well that's one thing... to me that isn't terrorism; it's revolution. and i've got no problem what-so-ever with the people rising as one and revolting against what they feel is unjust. but the second they start blowing up kids, or people in a theatre, then they lose all sympathy for their cause from me. then they're simply terrorist scum and should be taken out swiftly and soundly.

:bow: :up:
 
The people who commit terrorism are scum. That said, Putin has a lot to answer to himself.

Here are a couple of things from the regular Russian and Chechynan people.

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/story/0,14173,1298488,00.html

Leading Russian journalist 'poisoned'

Chris Tryhorn
Monday September 6, 2004

Alarm bells are ringing in Russian media circles after the alleged poisoning of Anna Politkovskaya, one of the most outspoken critics of Vladimir Putin's policy on Chechnya, and the apparent sacking of the editor of Izvestia today.
Politkovskaya, who writes for the current affairs magazine Novaya Gazeta, was on her way to the siege in Beslan from Moscow when she collapsed mysteriously.

According to the Moscow Times today, "Politkovskaya was flying from Vnukovo Airport to Rostov-on-Don and fainted on the plane. Immediately after landing, she was taken to a local hospital, where doctors found she had been poisoned, Novaya Gazeta editor Dmitry Muratov told the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists."

Muratov said Politkovskaya had not eaten anything that day and that she felt sick after drinking tea on the plane. He did not speculate on who might have poisoned her. Politkovskaya is now recovering in a Moscow clinic.

Politkovskaya has written repeatedly about Russia's brutal war in Chechnya, much to the fury of the Putin regime. She claims to have seen video footage that shows Chechen prisoners being treated the same way as those in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq but says no Russian TV channel would show it. When her paper published pictures no other papers followed up the story.
Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya

Polish writer Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich visited the region where she witnessed the brutal work done by Russia's soldiers in their fight against separatists

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,820261,00.html
Sunday October 27, 2002
The Observer

At 5am on 14 April 2002, an armoured vehicle moved slowly down Soviet Street. A young brown-haired man, covered in blood, his hands and feet bound, stood onboard. The vehicle stopped and the man was pushed off and brought over to a nearby chain-link fence. The car took off and there was a loud bang. The force of the explosion, caused either by a grenade or dynamite, sent the man's head flying into the neighbouring street, called Lenin's Commandments. 'It was difficult to photograph the moment, though I have grown somewhat accustomed to this,' says a petite greying Chechen woman, who has spent years documenting what Russia calls its 'anti-terrorism campaign'.
Blowing people up, dead or alive, she reports, is the latest tactic introduced by the federal army into the conflict. It was utilised perhaps most effectively on 3 July in the village of Meskyer Yurt, where 21 men, women and children were bound together and blown up, their remains thrown into a ditch.

...

Meanwhile, the more traditional methods endure. On 9 September the bodies of six men from Krasnostepnovskoye were found, naked, with plastic bags wrapped around their heads. In June, a ditch containing 50 mutilated bodies was discovered near the Russian army post in Chankala. The corpses were missing eyes, ears, limbs and genitals. Since February, mass graves have been found near Grozny, Chechen Yurt, Alkhan-Kala and Argun.

For nearly 10 years, since the beginning of the first war in December 1994, the grey-haired woman has been patrolling with her camera. She shows the gruesome images strewn on her table as if they were relics, or photographs from a family album. She runs her hand over the contours of an actual cracked skull, one of about a dozen found in February between Meskyer Yurt and Chechen Yurt.
...
The Society for Russian-Chechen Relations, in collaboration with Human Rights Watch, reports that in the span of a month between 15 July and 15 August this year, 59 civilians were shot dead, 64 were abducted, 168 were seriously wounded and 298 were tortured. Many men simply disappeared after being detained by Russian soldiers or security police; others were shot outright. During an operation in Chechen Aul between 21 May and 11 June, 22 men were killed. The majority were aged 20 to 26; two were 15.
...
Sometimes those who survive wish they were dead, as in Zernovodsk this summer, when townspeople say they were chased on to a field and made to watch women being raped. When their men tried to defend them, 68 of them were handcuffed to an armoured truck and raped too. After this episode, 45 of them joined the guerrillas in the mountains. One older man, Nurdi Dayeyev, who was nearly blind, had nails driven through his hands and feet because it was suspected that he was in contact with the fighters. When relatives later retrieved his remains, he was missing a hand. The relatives of another villager, Aldan Manayev, picked up a torso but no head. The families were forced to sign declarations that Dayeyev and Manayev had blown themselves up.
 
Well, according to Cheney, they were asking for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18906-2004Sep13.html

OTTUMWA, Iowa, Sept. 13 -- Vice President Cheney suggested Monday that the Sept. 2 terrorist strike at a Russian school may signal a shift in how the Putin government and others in Europe view the fight against terrorism: They will become more aggressive.

"There's been in some circles . . . in Europe, for example, a lot of our European friends have been somewhat ambivalent about this whole proposition with respect to how we deal with these terrorist attacks," Cheney said. He had been asked at a town hall meeting here in southeast Iowa whether he believed the siege would prompt Russia to be more forthcoming in assisting the United States in fighting terrorism.

The vice president did not directly mention any foreign governments that have refused to support the war in Iraq. But he said, "I think some of them hoped that if they kept their heads down and stayed out of the line of fire that they wouldn't get hit."
The attack on the school in Beslan, which killed at least 328 people, cannot help but prompt many governments to rethink their isolationism, Cheney said, noting that Russia, for example, "of course did not support us in Iraq."

"What happened in Russia has demonstrated conclusively that everyone is a target," he said. "I think there will be a higher degree of cooperation from all countries as we move forward."
 
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