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Old 09-14-2004, 05:08 PM   #31
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Cheney didn't need to mention that Russia was not involved in the Iraq war. By mentioning that, he made it sound as though if Russia had been involved, Beslan would not have happened--which is, of course, not very damn likely.
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Old 09-14-2004, 08:05 PM   #32
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WTF???

By mentioning Russia was NOT involved it made it sound like Russia HAD been involved. Does Not Compute, Does Not Compute!
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Old 09-14-2004, 08:09 PM   #33
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Read my post again.
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Old 09-14-2004, 08:14 PM   #34
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I did, what Cheney said makes sense, there are many European nations that feel that they have a pass from terrorism because they opposed the Iraq war. The Madrid bombings are not seen as an attack against Europe as a whole, rather an attack against a government which supported the war. It is unfortunate that they feel this way because with such a large Arab/Muslim population in Europe of which there is definitely a minority that wishes to see attacks it is only a matter of time.

I will clarify exactly here so nobody makes any mistakes, I am not saying that all Muslims or Arabs who live in Europe or anywhere for that matter are terrorists. What I am saying is that of all the Muslims living in Europe there is a minority of extremists who subscribe to the Islamist cause and have the intent to deliver harm to innocent people. I would also say that a lot of European governments have tollerated this out of fear. That is all.
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:24 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by sharky

The attack on the school in Beslan, which killed at least 328 people, cannot help but prompt many governments to rethink their isolationism, Cheney said, noting that Russia, for example, "of course did not support us in Iraq."

"What happened in Russia has demonstrated conclusively that everyone is a target," he said. "I think there will be a higher degree of cooperation from all countries as we move forward."
It's almost as if he is gloating about this. "well, now that they've been attacked, maybe they will support us when we tell them to." Russia supported our invasion of Afghanistan. And just because they didn't follow us down the slippery slope of Iraq doesn't mean they are "isolationist." It's no wonder the rest of the world has such a negative view of us when we have people like Cheney saying this stuff. Is there any country, aside from the U.K., that he hasn't attacked? Saying this wouldn't have happened if only Russia supported us is like saying 9/11 wouldn't have happened if only we didn't support Israel. That was indeed said by a Saudi prince when he handed Giuliani a check to help the city after the attacks. Rudy promptly handed it back.

It's bad enough the administration is scaring its own people. Its worse when it tries to scare the people of other nations into fighting a war.
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Old 09-14-2004, 09:32 PM   #36
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I did, what Cheney said makes sense, there are many European nations that feel that they have a pass from terrorism because they opposed the Iraq war. The Madrid bombings are not seen as an attack against Europe as a whole, rather an attack against a government which supported the war. It is unfortunate that they feel this way because with such a large Arab/Muslim population in Europe of which there is definitely a minority that wishes to see attacks it is only a matter of time.
I see what you're saying but cheney was saying essentially, Russia didn't support us in Iraq and because they were isolationists, they didn't defeat terrorists and were attacked. But it doesn't make sense. Spain supported us and they were attacked. Russia didn't support us and they were attacked. Everyone is vulnerable, yes, but what does not joining us in Iraq have to do with al Qaeda and chechan rebels attacking a school? not a damn thing. There is no connectionn between the two groups -- just ask Colin Powell.
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Old 09-15-2004, 12:08 AM   #37
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If one looks at what the Bin Ladens out there are saying then it is abundantly clear they want us all dead. Every single one of us removed from the planet, first they will come for the Jews and Americans but after that it will be the US Allies and finally all the other Infidel Nations. Either submit to Islam or die, that is their message. Now it is debatable whether these fanatics represent the true Islam religion of peace but the fact is these people will kill us and will continue killing us, you can buy time by abandoning your allies but they will make sure that your fate catches up to you.

The two groups have one thing in common, Islamism. They share a common ideology, within Iraq among the myriad of groups there is most certainly a group that desires to see Iraq fall under the governance of a pure Islamic state, simmilar to the Taliban. In Chechnya there are groups that also want to see this type of government rule. This ideology is an expansionist and violent one. They kill people, from Bali to New York - from Islamabad to Beslan. It is a death cult that embraces death as a means to achieve its goals. It is the antithesis of every ideology we have fought before, there is no reason for them to negotiate, they savour destruction because when it is boiled down killing infidels and supressing dissent is all these groups want. Destroy Islamism by removing its support, do this by bringing liberty to the Islamic world. Iraq is risky business, if we fail then the problem will be a whole lot worse but when we succeed it will be a signifiant blow to political Islam. Iraqi's have suffered for freedom, they will not give it up for religious fascism.
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Old 09-15-2004, 12:21 AM   #38
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
God, is there any depth to which Cheney will NOT sink?
No. Dick Cheney is indeed a little weasel.
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Old 09-15-2004, 12:27 AM   #39
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No. Dick Cheney is indeed a little weasel.
I think you are maligning the weasel by comparing it to Cheney.
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:36 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If one looks at what the Bin Ladens out there are saying then it is abundantly clear they want us all dead. Every single one of us removed from the planet, first they will come for the Jews and Americans but after that it will be the US Allies and finally all the other Infidel Nations. Either submit to Islam or die, that is their message. Now it is debatable whether these fanatics represent the true Islam religion of peace but the fact is these people will kill us and will continue killing us, you can buy time by abandoning your allies but they will make sure that your fate catches up to you.

The two groups have one thing in common, Islamism. They share a common ideology, within Iraq among the myriad of groups there is most certainly a group that desires to see Iraq fall under the governance of a pure Islamic state, simmilar to the Taliban. In Chechnya there are groups that also want to see this type of government rule. This ideology is an expansionist and violent one. They kill people, from Bali to New York - from Islamabad to Beslan. It is a death cult that embraces death as a means to achieve its goals. It is the antithesis of every ideology we have fought before, there is no reason for them to negotiate, they savour destruction because when it is boiled down killing infidels and supressing dissent is all these groups want.
This is sadly true, but not many people have the guts to say it. And worst of all it's probably going to succeed because you aren't allowed to point this out without being called: racist, profiler, bigot, etc. Oh, and of course the omnipresent "but they're not all like that!" We KNOW. But because of the PCness the ones who ARE get the benefit of the doubt, and blanket protection. I just hope the saintly defenders of these activities will realize one day that the ones who want you dead will not care if you were PC or inclusive or tolerant or what. You're still an infidel to them. They don't think in terms of happy peaceful flowery lala land like you do.
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:52 AM   #41
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And just to be especially clear what we are talking about here is Islamism, it is not Islam. It is a political ideology that utilizes religious principles to achieve its despotism. Under this everybody will suffer including Muslims. It is nothing about anti-Imperialism or cycles of violence, it is everything about control and dominance. They seek to dominate the world, to kill those that stand in their way so that their apocalypse can be brought about. U2Kitten has posted before on this and was maligned substantially because of the lack of qualification. I will clarify here, please do not make baseless accusations of racism or cultural insensitiveness - I as most people here believe that every person has equal potential at birth and it is the human spirit which drives humanity to better things, I am an atheist but I do not subscribe to moral relitivism or postmodernism, my beliefs are no more valid or better than anybody elses; unless of course their beliefs or ideology harms others.

I want to make it abundantly clear to everybody that the problem is not Muslims, it is not about people worshipping a relgion. It is about a group within a religion that will kill for power, that subscribe to an apocalyptic death cult that scraps the religious portion of Islam and is just hatred. Everything in the great religions of the world, tollerance - love - peace. They are all there in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism. But Islamism, as a political ideology and cult lacks this, it is not a religion, it is a poltical ideology - like fascism of communism it seeks to control people and crush individuality. I will use the term Islamofascism, this is a strong term but I will use it because it is apt. It is a system that melds state to industry, brings in authoritarianism and robs indidual liberty - it shares more in common with Fascism than it does Islam as a religion.

So we are clear,

Islam = Relgion

Islamism = Political Ideology where all imperitives of the state become governed by ultraconservative religious adherance. Think of Saudi Arabia, Iran and Afghanistan under the Taliban.

Islamism is a form of religious fascism, it must be seperated from Islam. Exposed for what it is and discredited thorougly, too many people have suffered and continue to suffer because of political Islam (which is Islamism). Everybody must understand what we are up against. I have no problem with people worshipping, religious freedom and tollerance are a good thing but make no mistake, I am intollerant of intollerance and Islamism is single greatest theat to individuality in the 21st Century.

I am bending over backwards here to press this point, Islam as a religion - not the problem. Islamism as an ideology and the societies that tollerate/support it, substantial problem. It is a very fine line at some points, because Islam is so much a part of the society in the Arab/Muslim world and ultimately the political and social become entwined. It gets very nasty and sometimes specific statements such as mocking the PC line "Islam is a religion of peace" may be said, I will point this out because whenever a cleric who preaches violence turns around to tell the press "Islam is a religion of peace" it is hypocracy, one of the greatest forms of dishonesty. You cannot honestly believe somebody who one minute calls for the extermination of the Jews by the hand of Allah then turn around and tell the world he is preaching peace - it simply isn't so.

If we stay silent and let people suffer because of this we share some responsibility. As long as we allow evil men, people who will kill those who question them, to hide behind political correctness we are doing a disservice to the real moderate Muslims. Every time we tollerate one more extremist voice it is one more moderate drowned out in a sea of hatred. Do the right thing for humanity and support liberty - we all deserve better in this world because its the only life we get.
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Old 09-15-2004, 09:19 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
If one looks at what the Bin Ladens out there are saying then it is abundantly clear they want us all dead. Every single one of us removed from the planet, first they will come for the Jews and Americans but after that it will be the US Allies and finally all the other Infidel Nations. Either submit to Islam or die, that is their message. Now it is debatable whether these fanatics represent the true Islam religion of peace but the fact is these people will kill us and will continue killing us, you can buy time by abandoning your allies but they will make sure that your fate catches up to you.

The two groups have one thing in common, Islamism. They share a common ideology, within Iraq among the myriad of groups there is most certainly a group that desires to see Iraq fall under the governance of a pure Islamic state, simmilar to the Taliban. In Chechnya there are groups that also want to see this type of government rule. This ideology is an expansionist and violent one. They kill people, from Bali to New York - from Islamabad to Beslan. It is a death cult that embraces death as a means to achieve its goals. It is the antithesis of every ideology we have fought before, there is no reason for them to negotiate, they savour destruction because when it is boiled down killing infidels and supressing dissent is all these groups want. Destroy Islamism by removing its support, do this by bringing liberty to the Islamic world. Iraq is risky business, if we fail then the problem will be a whole lot worse but when we succeed it will be a signifiant blow to political Islam. Iraqi's have suffered for freedom, they will not give it up for religious fascism.
well said
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:44 PM   #43
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Originally posted by A_Wanderer
It is a very fine line at some points, because Islam is so much a part of the society in the Arab/Muslim world and ultimately the political and social become entwined.
I agree with a lot of what you said, but I've seen you hint around at this several times and it's just incorrect. They - the political, social, religious - don't "ultimately" become entwined, they are always inescapably entwined because Islam is a theocracy, where the religion permeates the entire social fabric. Judaism is also a theocracy, and therefore the blending of the religious and the social is not something that develops over time, it is a pillar and cornerstone of the religion itself.

It's not a really huge point except that some people seem to have the notion that you can separate the two, because Christianity, Buddhism, etc, live in a world where church and state are separate. Islam will never be this way, regardless of whether it is in a full democracy, because as a religion, it is fundamentally different to non-theocracies and it's very important to realize that.
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Old 09-15-2004, 06:53 PM   #44
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But when one takes that step it becomes apparent that Islam can never modernize and the societies secularize, and I refuse to believe that - there are progressive modern states that are majority Muslim, I still think that it is possible.

Very good points btw.
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Old 09-22-2004, 07:39 PM   #45
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I regret to say that obviously there is a double standard in terms of how US and especially Europe have been dealing with the issue of terrorism.
A living proof to that is Mr. Zakaev, the terrorist who assasinated and tortured a lot of Russian soldiers during the so-called "first Chechen war" (1994-1996), has got political asylum in the UK.

A couple of qoutes from Mr.Zakaev:

1995 - in an interview to the Russian State TV: "In our souls there is hatrid to everything that has to do with Russia...And we will respond with adequate steps. We will make Russia cry because of Dudayev. We will promise you that".

2002 (October 25) - From Zakaev's speech during a "forum" dedicated to the Chechen problem in Copenhagen, Denmark(while hostages still remained in the Moscow theatre): "We cannot rule out that another group will capture a nuclear facility. The consequences of that can be catastrophic not only for the Russian or Chechen societies but for Europe as a whole. But we should not be blamed for that..."

Just imagine that one of Bin Laden's aides is threatening with new terrorist attacks on the US territory in a conference in Moscow dedicated to the "problem of Al-Qaeda" while WTC is crumbling and you will probably understand the feeling of many Russians...

Another point: I did see and read a lot of expressions of sympathy, compassion and solidarity in the US during after the tragedy in Beslan. Not in Europe though...
Thanks a lot to everybody who took the tragedy with Russian school in Beslan so close to their hearts.
Thanks a lot to everybody who offered their help to the families of the victims.
Thanks a lot to everybody who remained silent and did not rush into political speculations demanding "immediate and unconditional negotiations" with the "rebels", "separatists", "freedom fighters" i.e people who shoot children in the back...
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