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Old 09-13-2004, 04:45 PM   #16
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The poverty- terrorism thing is not really clicking with this. None of the poor subsaharan African people are terrorists. The guy who flew the plane into the WTC was the son of a wealthy surgeon. Bin Laden is a multimillionaire. The problem with the stop poverty stop terrorism thing is that the people who are the terrorists do not like or want a lifestyle or society like ours, and would get even madder and think us arrogant for trying to force it on them. Most of the poorest people in the world are not terrorists. Terrorism is a philosophy of certain extremist groups.
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Old 09-13-2004, 04:48 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by BostonAnne
I understand that you (U2Kitten) are feeling the effects of some bad economic troubles - but even if you ended up homeless for awhile there will be people to take care of you. Our society would not let you starve or let your children live on the streets.
The biggest reason for my economic troubles was some poor financial management and bad descisions besides living in an area with a high cost of living. My relatives would not take care of me if I were homeless, welfare only helps for awhile. Homeless shelters can only do so much. We have such a long way to go to get everyone out of poverty, it's really sad and depressing to think about, so many desperate people, all over the world If I were rich I'd help people, no one would have to even ask.

Thanks for your heartfelt responses on the African situation



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Old 09-13-2004, 05:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jamila
While I respect the fact that the "terrorism" I'm talking about does not fit nicely into the dictionary's definition of "terrorism", this same idea has been alluded by Bono from something Colin Powell, U.S. Secretary of State said in 2002 "The war against terrorism is tied up in the war against poverty".

The two are intrinsically linked.
I agree with you that by helping Africa now, we may be protecting ourselves from future terrorists.
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Old 09-13-2004, 05:57 PM   #19
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With respect to both of you, I don't see that as preventing terrorism, since those African countries are not prone to terrorist activity. They never have been, it's not their culture or their ideals like it is in some middle eastern countries. But we need to help them anyway, because they need it.
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Old 09-13-2004, 05:59 PM   #20
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Originally posted by Jamila
Anyway, sorry, wild angel, I was only pointing out a tragic preventable situation for millions of people in the world. I hoped to would add not detract from your original idea.

I wish everyone well.
Jamila, I always appreciate someone else posting about the emergency in Africa. It is frustrating to watch the anger and disgust that takes place when people are killed by terrorists and not see the same concern placed on the thousands that are lost each day that could be saved if we made it happen. In my book - it all makes my disgusted and angry.
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Old 09-13-2004, 06:03 PM   #21
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It's hard. Putin shouldn't deal with terrorists, but he's in a pickle with Chechnya. Meeting with officials from Chechnya wouldn't be a bad idea, and it's not likely he'd be meeting with terrorists anyway. As for any Al Qaeda activities, if they can figure out a way to stop this, more power to them.
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Old 09-13-2004, 06:03 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by U2Kitten
With respect to both of you, I don't see that as preventing terrorism, since those African countries are not prone to terrorist activity. They never have been, it's not their culture or their ideals like it is in some middle eastern countries. But we need to help them anyway, because they need it.
I hope African countries continue to not be prone to terrist activity. There are millions of children in Africa that have lost their parents. As they learn that their loss could have been prevented - who knows what anger they will harbor towards us. Who knows if a terrorist group will go to Africa and recruit some angry assistants.

You are right that this isn't something to argue about though - we need to help them anyway, because the need it.
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Old 09-14-2004, 06:32 AM   #23
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I saw a list of changes Putin is making. Some were very disturbing, especially doing away with elections on a local level and installing Kremlin appointees.

An interesting article by a Chechnya doctor and peace activist. Putin inherited the situation, but his response will only strengthen the resistance (much like Iraq)

http://www.iht.com/bin/print.php?file=538399.html

The scenes at Beslan weren't so unfamiliar
Khassan Baiev The Boston Globe
Monday, September 13, 2004


Violence begets violence

BOSTON The pictures of the Russian children being carried out of the school in Beslan, their naked bodies splattered with blood, filled me with sorrow and anger. No excuse exists for the slaughtering of innocent civilians. No excuse exists for taking children hostage, blowing up planes or suicide bombings. Those responsible for such carnage have forfeited their right to be called human beings.

What made those scenes from Beslan so anguishing for me was that I had seen them all before. As a wartime surgeon in Chechnya I had treated the broken bodies of children - the young girl whose parents were blown up by a bomb before her eyes, the little boy whose hair turned white overnight, small bodies pierced by hundreds of pieces of shrapnel. And everywhere blood.

I do not claim to understand the mentality of a terrorist willing to sacrifice children. However, as a Chechen and a doctor with firsthand experience of the war, I can offer some context into what turns ordinary people into extremists willing to commit such atrocities.

We have been fighting Russia on and off for 400 years. Our nation is small, a third the size of Belgium, with a prewar population of one million. In the recent 10-year war with Russia, 250,000 people died, fully a quarter of the population. Of those deaths, an estimated 42,000 were children. And our children are still dying, from gunfire, from mines, from an unexplained illness resulting from the contaminated environment caused by the war.

History has taught us to fear Russia. The belief of most Chechens that the Kremlin would like to eliminate them is fueled by the deportations. In the 19th century the czarist government exiled us to Turkey, Jordan and Syria. In 1944, Stalin herded our whole population into cattle cars and shipped us to Siberia. A third of us perished on the journey or in the harsh conditions of exile.

We had hoped that with the breakup of the Soviet Union we might at long last attain independence from Russia. We are Muslims. We speak a different language. We have different traditions. However, our dream of self-rule evaporated when Boris Yeltsin invaded our country with a force of 300,000 Russian soldiers on Dec. 11, 2003.

For the past 10 years Chechnya has been occupied by a foreign invader. Occupation breeds violence, which invites lawlessness on both sides. The abuses of civilians by Russian soldiers have been documented by various human rights organizations - Physicians for Human Rights, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International and the Russian human rights organization Memorial. Young Russian soldiers are also dying unnecessarily.

Ordinary Chechens share my sorrow at the terrible carnage at the school in Beslan. But they are also fearful, knowing that they will be blamed. They are bracing themselves for reprisals. The Kremlin spin doctors have done a good job of casting us as international terrorists masterminded by Muslim extremists from the Middle East. Sadly, most people believe the propaganda, even though we do not know the ethnic composition of the hostage takers in Beslan. It does not matter. The school siege resulting in the deaths of hundreds of children was a heinous crime whoever was responsible.
...
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Old 09-14-2004, 07:31 AM   #24
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Re: Fighting terrorism: a double standard?

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Originally posted by Wild Angel
Recently, Russian President Vladimir Putin has complained that the US, and countries who support the US have encouraged him to 'negotiate' with the terrorists instead of using force. He says, and I agree, that this is a double standard since the US believes in going after the terrorists. Putin said 'why don't you 'negotiate' with Osama bin Laden?' You cannot negotiate with people willing or even hoping to die. With this new breed of war there has to be a new way of fighting it. Putin has complained that the US and the UK are harboring Chechen terrorists with ties to the Moscow theater incident, giving them political asylum on the grounds they'd be tortured if returned to Russia. He asks, and so do I, wouldn't we want Russia to extridite a 9-11 terrorist? Russia sees their problems with terrorism as much the same as the US and that we need to be united in this.
i fully support the war on terrorism... but if i had to pick something about it that i had a problem with, this would be it. if it's going to be a global war on all terror, then it has to be a global war on all terror. if the chechen's want to attack targets of the russian military and/or government, well that's one thing... to me that isn't terrorism; it's revolution. and i've got no problem what-so-ever with the people rising as one and revolting against what they feel is unjust. but the second they start blowing up kids, or people in a theatre, then they lose all sympathy for their cause from me. then they're simply terrorist scum and should be taken out swiftly and soundly.
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Old 09-14-2004, 08:32 AM   #25
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Re: Re: Fighting terrorism: a double standard?

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Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


if it's going to be a global war on all terror, then it has to be a global war on all terror.
Too bad that the international comunity never was able to define "Terror" because every nation wanted to exclude the terror they support from this list
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:12 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
It's hard. Putin shouldn't deal with terrorists, but he's in a pickle with Chechnya. Meeting with officials from Chechnya wouldn't be a bad idea, and it's not likely he'd be meeting with terrorists anyway. As for any Al Qaeda activities, if they can figure out a way to stop this, more power to them.
Even though you'd be talking with diplomats instead of terrorists, the message is still there that you were brought to your knees and screamed OKAY LET'S TALK! which would mean terror tactics appear to be successful and the world can't let that happen. Here's a link on how the Chechens are trying to get the west to force Putin into talks:

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L14638167.htm

There was a great story in the newspaper today about the history behind this, but I can't find an online link to it. It told how Yeltsin sent in troops to quell and uprising in the latter 90's. The Chechens fought the Russian army to a standstill, but nothing was solved. Since then they have used terrorism to try to achieve their break from Russia and that is the WRONG thing to do. Besides the school, theater, subway and concert, they also bombed a hospital for disabled veterans! You CANNOT let people like that using ways like that prevail in any way.

Quote:
Originally posted by Headache in a Suitcase


i fully support the war on terrorism... but if i had to pick something about it that i had a problem with, this would be it. if it's going to be a global war on all terror, then it has to be a global war on all terror. if the chechen's want to attack targets of the russian military and/or government, well that's one thing... to me that isn't terrorism; it's revolution. and i've got no problem what-so-ever with the people rising as one and revolting against what they feel is unjust. but the second they start blowing up kids, or people in a theatre, then they lose all sympathy for their cause from me. then they're simply terrorist scum and should be taken out swiftly and soundly.
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:26 AM   #27
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The people who commit terrorism are scum. That said, Putin has a lot to answer to himself.

Here are a couple of things from the regular Russian and Chechynan people.

http://media.guardian.co.uk/site/sto...298488,00.html

Leading Russian journalist 'poisoned'

Chris Tryhorn
Monday September 6, 2004

Alarm bells are ringing in Russian media circles after the alleged poisoning of Anna Politkovskaya, one of the most outspoken critics of Vladimir Putin's policy on Chechnya, and the apparent sacking of the editor of Izvestia today.
Politkovskaya, who writes for the current affairs magazine Novaya Gazeta, was on her way to the siege in Beslan from Moscow when she collapsed mysteriously.

According to the Moscow Times today, "Politkovskaya was flying from Vnukovo Airport to Rostov-on-Don and fainted on the plane. Immediately after landing, she was taken to a local hospital, where doctors found she had been poisoned, Novaya Gazeta editor Dmitry Muratov told the New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists."

Muratov said Politkovskaya had not eaten anything that day and that she felt sick after drinking tea on the plane. He did not speculate on who might have poisoned her. Politkovskaya is now recovering in a Moscow clinic.

Politkovskaya has written repeatedly about Russia's brutal war in Chechnya, much to the fury of the Putin regime. She claims to have seen video footage that shows Chechen prisoners being treated the same way as those in Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq but says no Russian TV channel would show it. When her paper published pictures no other papers followed up the story.
Torture and rape stalk the streets of Chechnya

Polish writer Krystyna Kurczab-Redlich visited the region where she witnessed the brutal work done by Russia's soldiers in their fight against separatists

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/inter...820261,00.html
Sunday October 27, 2002
The Observer

At 5am on 14 April 2002, an armoured vehicle moved slowly down Soviet Street. A young brown-haired man, covered in blood, his hands and feet bound, stood onboard. The vehicle stopped and the man was pushed off and brought over to a nearby chain-link fence. The car took off and there was a loud bang. The force of the explosion, caused either by a grenade or dynamite, sent the man's head flying into the neighbouring street, called Lenin's Commandments. 'It was difficult to photograph the moment, though I have grown somewhat accustomed to this,' says a petite greying Chechen woman, who has spent years documenting what Russia calls its 'anti-terrorism campaign'.
Blowing people up, dead or alive, she reports, is the latest tactic introduced by the federal army into the conflict. It was utilised perhaps most effectively on 3 July in the village of Meskyer Yurt, where 21 men, women and children were bound together and blown up, their remains thrown into a ditch.

...

Meanwhile, the more traditional methods endure. On 9 September the bodies of six men from Krasnostepnovskoye were found, naked, with plastic bags wrapped around their heads. In June, a ditch containing 50 mutilated bodies was discovered near the Russian army post in Chankala. The corpses were missing eyes, ears, limbs and genitals. Since February, mass graves have been found near Grozny, Chechen Yurt, Alkhan-Kala and Argun.

For nearly 10 years, since the beginning of the first war in December 1994, the grey-haired woman has been patrolling with her camera. She shows the gruesome images strewn on her table as if they were relics, or photographs from a family album. She runs her hand over the contours of an actual cracked skull, one of about a dozen found in February between Meskyer Yurt and Chechen Yurt.
...
The Society for Russian-Chechen Relations, in collaboration with Human Rights Watch, reports that in the span of a month between 15 July and 15 August this year, 59 civilians were shot dead, 64 were abducted, 168 were seriously wounded and 298 were tortured. Many men simply disappeared after being detained by Russian soldiers or security police; others were shot outright. During an operation in Chechen Aul between 21 May and 11 June, 22 men were killed. The majority were aged 20 to 26; two were 15.
...
Sometimes those who survive wish they were dead, as in Zernovodsk this summer, when townspeople say they were chased on to a field and made to watch women being raped. When their men tried to defend them, 68 of them were handcuffed to an armoured truck and raped too. After this episode, 45 of them joined the guerrillas in the mountains. One older man, Nurdi Dayeyev, who was nearly blind, had nails driven through his hands and feet because it was suspected that he was in contact with the fighters. When relatives later retrieved his remains, he was missing a hand. The relatives of another villager, Aldan Manayev, picked up a torso but no head. The families were forced to sign declarations that Dayeyev and Manayev had blown themselves up.
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:08 PM   #28
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Well, according to Cheney, they were asking for it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A18906-2004Sep13.html

OTTUMWA, Iowa, Sept. 13 -- Vice President Cheney suggested Monday that the Sept. 2 terrorist strike at a Russian school may signal a shift in how the Putin government and others in Europe view the fight against terrorism: They will become more aggressive.

"There's been in some circles . . . in Europe, for example, a lot of our European friends have been somewhat ambivalent about this whole proposition with respect to how we deal with these terrorist attacks," Cheney said. He had been asked at a town hall meeting here in southeast Iowa whether he believed the siege would prompt Russia to be more forthcoming in assisting the United States in fighting terrorism.

The vice president did not directly mention any foreign governments that have refused to support the war in Iraq. But he said, "I think some of them hoped that if they kept their heads down and stayed out of the line of fire that they wouldn't get hit."
The attack on the school in Beslan, which killed at least 328 people, cannot help but prompt many governments to rethink their isolationism, Cheney said, noting that Russia, for example, "of course did not support us in Iraq."

"What happened in Russia has demonstrated conclusively that everyone is a target," he said. "I think there will be a higher degree of cooperation from all countries as we move forward."
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:17 PM   #29
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God, is there any depth to which Cheney will NOT sink?
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Old 09-14-2004, 04:26 PM   #30
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Well, according to Cheney, they were asking for it.
How do you twist his words to get this conclusion??
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