Fellow Christians: My girlfriend and I need your help.

[80sU2isBest]

Man I wish I had your beliefs, Im christian, now Im going to go sin all I want, but who cares Im christian Im already saved. All I know is that these unclean spirits try to possess the body of christians and non christians, just as they did in the times of Jesus, when Jesus cast them out, they wanted a body. And Ive seen it happen to Christians, so Im not just making this happen, Ive seen it.

Is that what I said? No! And if you had taken the time to actually read what I wrote and try to understand it, you'd know that. If you knew me at all from these forums, you'd know I don't believe that at all. I do not advocate "sinning all I want"! If someone has that attitude, it makes me doubt whether that person is a Christian or not. I want to do what's right in God's sight. I don't always do it, but that's what I want.

The Bible does say that a Christian is washed clean. That's why Christ was crucified, because we can't wash our own sins away. If you are a Christian, your spirit (not your flesh) is perfect - the Bible says that you are a new creation; the sin nature has been crucified and in tis place is a new nature created by Christ. The Holy Spirit moves in when a person becomes a Christian. Paul said that "I am crucified with Christ. Therefore, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Now, tell me how a demon can enter the soul of someone who has the Holy Spirit in him? It won't work. Darkness and light cannot abide together. When accused of being demon possessed, Christ himself said that "a house divided against itself cannot stand". In other words, "I have God in me; I cannot have a demon, also"

 

[martha]

you owe it to her and to God that she receive proper care.

It would be unfortunate if this young lady were to harm herself due to an unreasonable and inconsistent application of Biblical teachings.

 

[shart1780]

Is that what I said? No! And if you had taken the time to actually read what I wrote and try to understand it, you'd know that. If you knew me at all from these forums, you'd know I don't believe that at all. I do not advocate "sinning all I want"! If someone has that attitude, it makes me doubt whether that person is a Christian or not. I want to do what's right in God's sight. I don't always do it, but that's what I want.

The Bible does say that a Christian is washed clean. That's why Christ was crucified, because we can't wash our own sins away. If you are a Christian, your spirit (not your flesh) is perfect - the Bible says that you are a new creation; the sin nature has been crucified and in tis place is a new nature created by Christ. The Holy Spirit moves in when a person becomes a Christian. Paul said that "I am crucified with Christ. Therefore, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Now, tell me how a demon can enter the soul of someone who has the Holy Spirit in him? It won't work. Darkness and light cannot abide together. When accused of being demon possessed, Christ himself said that "a house divided against itself cannot stand". In other words, "I have God in me; I cannot have a demon, also"

Yeah, you're right. Either she wasn't a christian or she was being oppressed from the outside. I just have a hard time believing a demon could oppress her like that. She really seemed possessed to me. It was controlling her body and her mind to a point, and making her say things she didn't want to say. I just don't see how that can happen to a christian.

I guess all that matters now is that she's been washed clean of any demon and is clean in God's eyes

 

[u2bonogirl]

heres something I find interesting

"The Biblical concept is that man is comprised of two components. The material body and the immaterial spirit. Those who promote Christian demonization say that the unclean dwells in our body and not the spirit. What they overlook is that the old nature still dwells in us and that it expresses itself by the body. Yielding to the desires of the flesh can bring one into bondage but this certainly cannot be put in the same category as demonization. While it makes one do the will of Satan instead of God it should not be confused with occupation. In Gal. 5:19-22, much of what is blamed on demons is really man's fallen nature, expressing itself through his flesh. Demons can entice and exaggerate our fleshly weaknesses but the blame lies in ourselves .

While demonic power can affect the outside of our body and our emotions and minds they can never come into the innermost man, one needs to distinguish between oppression and possession .Satan has a limit in dealing with a believer otherwise we are no better off then one who is a non believer. If every time they sin it is blamed on demonic activity than what would be the difference when we sin. Then Christ cannot protect His people."


On the topic of just sinning because we are forgiven, thats not what Christians are taught to do
God wants to see the fruits of our labors within ourselves. Weeding out the sinful nature and replacing it with a more Godly nature through discipline and faith.
I know that Im a far better person (though not a good person in the least) than I was without my faith in God
Because I love God I want to do what he wants, and that is a mark of a christian. desire to do better, not just use God as an excuse to do whatever the hell I want

 

[80sU2isBest]

I will say goodnight to you, shart, and I will pray for both of you. But before I log off, I would like to stress one more time - please consider taking her to see a Christian counselor who has dealt with and specializes in suicidal tendancies. Please.

 

[Diemen]

I'm going to share a story that my dad is particular fond of telling. I think it applies here.

During a particular rainy season in Mississippi, the river spilled it's banks and flooded a small rural town. A young man saw the water rising steadily, but did not know how to swim. He climbed up onto the roof of his house and began to pray. "God, I have followed your path as long as I can remember. I have faith that you will save me."

Soon his neighbors from across the street paddled over in a canoe, and shouted for him to come down and climb in.

"No thanks!" said the young man. "God will save me!" Shrugging, the neighbors paddled down the street and out of sight.

Still the floodwaters rose, until they were at the bottom of the roof. "God will save me," said the young man, "I have faith."

As the water began to lap at his feet, another neighbor approached in a canoe and implored the young man to climb in so they could row to safety.

"Thank you, but I have faith that God will save me! Go, get to safety!" Shrugging, the neighbor moved on.

The waters continued to rise, until the young man could no longer stay afloat. He drowned. Upon appearing in Heaven, the young man, somewhat confused, asked God "God, why did you not save me? My faith has always been strong!"

To which God replied "Did you not see the two canoes I sent you?"

-----

Don't ignore help simply because it doesn't announce itself as being from God.

 

[shart1780]

I will say goodnight to you, shart, and I will pray for both of you. Bute before I log off, I would like to stress one more time - please consider taking her to see a Christian counselor who has dealt with and specializes in suicidal tendancies. Please.

I will. I'll talk to her about this tonight. Thanks alot for your prayers. It's nice to know there's other christians out there who are supporting us

 

[BVS]

I believe she was unsaved. A couple years ago we had prayed "the prayer" together, but I think since then she had really fallen away. It's hard for me to say for sure whether I believe a christian can be possessed or not, but I can tell you I'm pretty sure that she had fallen away from God.

See this is what I don't understand. Going back to 80's definition of a Christian and something that you yourself have talked about in other posts, how once you accept Jesus then grace will save you, but now you are saying that the prodical son isn't protected by grace. Given your history of posts, and I hate to bring it up but I think it's important in this discussion, I'm surprised you have been in such a long relationship with someone that isn't Christian. I mean you have a very strict definition of what a Christian is more than most ministers, priests, or others that I know. I mean you won't turn to "secular" psycology for help, but you'll turn to a "secular" girlfriend for love? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The willfull self-destructiveness that the human mind is capable of is a serious problem; I have seen it first hand and if nothing is done then the final cry for help will be the end.

The manifestation of this damage can vary from person to person; some may take too cutting themselves in acts of self mutilation, others attempt suicide or go about cutting themselves off from others. Repression of the behaviour through sheer strength of will does not solve the problem and it can make it worse in the long run.

What is the one way conduit of the spirtual for a person; their soul; what is the soul ~ the psyche; and a scientific approach to this can save the person and stop the issues.

 

[martha]

Yeah, you're right. Either she wasn't a christian or she was being oppressed from the outside. I just have a hard time believing a demon could oppress her like that. She really seemed possessed to me. It was controlling her body and her mind to a point, and making her say things she didn't want to say. I just don't see how that can happen to a christian.

I guess all that matters now is that she's been washed clean of any demon and is clean in God's eyes

I can't even think of anything to say to this. She's been suicidal before, she's been abused, and you seriously think two kids can overcome all this just with a prayer or two?




Good luck, kids. You're going to need it.

 

[shart1780]

The willfull self-destructiveness that the human mind is capable of is a serious problem; I have seen it first hand and if nothing is done then the final cry for help will be the end.

The manifestation of this damage can vary from person to person; some may take too cutting themselves in acts of self mutilation, others attempt suicide or go about cutting themselves off from others. Repression of the behaviour through sheer strength of will does not solve the problem and it can make it worse in the long run.

What is the one way conduit of the spirtual for a person; their soul; what is the soul ~ the psyche; and a scientific approach to this can save the person and stop the issues.

I don't propose that she strengthens herself through sheer willpower, I propose that she strengthens herself through God's power, which is infinite.

 

[u2bonogirl]

See this is what I don't understand. Going back to 80's definition of a Christian and something that you yourself have talked about in other posts, how once you accept Jesus then grace will save you, but now you are saying that the prodical son isn't protected by grace. Given your history of posts, and I hate to bring it up but I think it's important in this discussion, I'm surprised you have been in such a long relationship with someone that isn't Christian. I mean you have a very strict definition of what a Christian is more than most ministers, priests, or others that I know. I mean you won't turn to "secular" psycology for help, but you'll turn to a "secular" girlfriend for love? It just doesn't make sense.

I was going to bring this up as well thanks for getting there before me

diemen (kind of ironic ) I liked your illustration. It went along the vein of what I was trying to say about God commanding us to love one another. In that we can help one another. God works through people. Its a common known fact among the christian community

 

[-macphisto-]

Is that what I said? No! And if you had taken the time to actually read what I wrote and try to understand it, you'd know that. If you knew me at all from these forums, you'd know I don't believe that at all. I do not advocate "sinning all I want"! If someone has that attitude, it makes me doubt whether that person is a Christian or not. I want to do what's right in God's sight. I don't always do it, but that's what I want.

The Bible does say that a Christian is washed clean. That's why Christ was crucified, because we can't wash our own sins away. If you are a Christian, your spirit (not your flesh) is perfect - the Bible says that you are a new creation; the sin nature has been crucified and in tis place is a new nature created by Christ. The Holy Spirit moves in when a person becomes a Christian. Paul said that "I am crucified with Christ. Therefore, it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Now, tell me how a demon can enter the soul of someone who has the Holy Spirit in him? It won't work. Darkness and light cannot abide together. When accused of being demon possessed, Christ himself said that "a house divided against itself cannot stand". In other words, "I have God in me; I cannot have a demon, also"

First of all I didnt mean to come off like that, judging your beliefs, sorry about that.

Im not going get in a bible bash with you, Ive already debated this many times on this forum, with scriptures, etc.. And it goes nowhere. So I respect your beliefs, and i hope you will respect mine!

It is true when we are baptised we recieve the Holy Ghost as a comforter, a guidance, just like on Pinocchio(im going to use Pinocchio, as an example)Pinocchio had a fairy as a guidance to choose right from wrong, and when Pinocchio chose wrong he was easily acceptable to the darkside, as the fairy left him. When we are in a state of sinning, the Holy Ghost can not abide with us, he is not with us, and we are open to devil, and his temptaions. I dont know as to how far people go, as they actually have to invite the devil( and sinning openily is practically inviting the devil). I wish you could have been with me walking the streets in Mexico City, and been with me in some of these homes, and you would know how real this really is. It happens just as much with Christians as it does with non Christians, if you dont believe me, that is fine.

 

[A_Wanderer]

God's power requires faith which must come from within; and it still does not adress the cause of the problems.

It is a moot point anyway; all I am saying is do not abandon an avenue which could really help.

 

[BVS]

Yeah, you're right. Either she wasn't a christian or she was being oppressed from the outside. I just have a hard time believing a demon could oppress her like that. She really seemed possessed to me. It was controlling her body and her mind to a point, and making her say things she didn't want to say. I just don't see how that can happen to a christian.

I guess all that matters now is that she's been washed clean of any demon and is clean in God's eyes

Ok I wasn't going to say anymore but it just got more ridiculous in here. What are you talking about?!?

First of all you've never witnessed a possession so you have no clue as to how it looks or sounds. I've seen mental breakdowns, I know what they look and sound like.

You still stand by the fact that she was possessed, well almost everyone who actually believes in possession would call you a liar because a demon is much stronger than any human force and would have hung up on you right away! You don't come out of a "possession" in 5 minutes, or how ever long your phone call lasted.

 

[u2bonogirl]

I would like to hear this from the girls side too

 

[80sU2isBest]

heres something I find interesting

"The Biblical concept is that man is comprised of two components. The material body and the immaterial spirit. Those who promote Christian demonization say that the unclean dwells in our body and not the spirit. What they overlook is that the old nature still dwells in us and that it expresses itself by the body. Yielding to the desires of the flesh can bring one into bondage but this certainly cannot be put in the same category as demonization. While it makes one do the will of Satan instead of God it should not be confused with occupation. In Gal. 5:19-22, much of what is blamed on demons is really man's fallen nature, expressing itself through his flesh. Demons can entice and exaggerate our fleshly weaknesses but the blame lies in ourselves .

While demonic power can affect the outside of our body and our emotions and minds they can never come into the innermost man, one needs to distinguish between oppression and possession .Satan has a limit in dealing with a believer otherwise we are no better off then one who is a non believer. If every time they sin it is blamed on demonic activity than what would be the difference when we sin. Then Christ cannot protect His people."


On the topic of just sinning because we are forgiven, thats not what Christians are taught to do
God wants to see the fruits of our labors within ourselves. Weeding out the sinful nature and replacing it with a more Godly nature through discipline and faith.
I know that Im a far better person (though not a good person in the least) than I was without my faith in God
Because I love God I want to do what he wants, and that is a mark of a christian. desire to do better, not just use God as an excuse to do whatever the hell I want

Hi,
I agree with some of what you said, but I propose to you that the "sin nature" is crucified when a person becomes a Christian. The Bible says that plainly, several times. The Bible says that it is replaced with a new nature, created by Christ. The "fallen nature" is dead for a Christian and is no longer in control. Paul said "I am crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." When Christ died on the cross, he destroyed the power of sin over all who would believe in him. That's not to say that Christians will not sin, but it is to say we don't have to, because the old "fallen nature" is no longer alive in us; the Holy Spirit is alive within us, to help us resist temptation. Spiritually speaking, we have been brought back to complete union with God, with no imperfection of the spirit at all. There is not a "good self" and a "bad self" warring within you. The battle is external; it is with the devil and his demons, not with your own spirit. The thing is that Christians still do have the flesh, which is not perfect, and with which they can sin. But I submit that the temptation to sin does not come from within yourself, but from demons and Satan. If we sin, it is because we have allowed ourselves to be deceived by him, and thus the temptation worked. I cannot use "oh, it's just my old sin nature" as an excuse. I have to face up to it and said "I know what's right, but I listened to the old devil anyway".

 

[u2bonogirl]

that was not actually my quote but someone elses
I know plenty about sin, trust me! My church has focal points on the gospel, and sin.
Yes, when God gave us his son he gave us christ to live within us. That doesnt mean that we always listen, which goes with what you said about giving in to temptation
Just because we've been forgiven, and had our sins covered in the eyes of God by Jesus, doesnt mean that its a constant every day struggle to change ourselves from the heart out.
The things that come out of our mouths, and our actions are the overflow of our hearts. Sinful actions are the result of a sinful heart.
We cant expect to be automatically changed as a result of salvation. Its work. Lots
We have the sprit to help us and guide and protect us, but it definitely wont act for us

I have no idea if Im helping in this conversation in the least bit

 

[-macphisto-]

Hi,
I agree with some of what you said, but I propose to you that the "sin nature" is crucified when a person becomes a Christian. The Bible says that plainly, several times. The Bible says that it is replaced with a new nature, created by Christ. The "fallen nature" is dead for a Christian and is no longer in control. Paul said "I am crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me." When Christ died on the cross, he destroyed the power of sin over all who would believe in him. That's not to say that Christians will not sin, but it is to say we don't have to, because the old "fallen nature" is no longer alive in us; the Holy Spirit is alive within us, to help us resist temptation. Spiritually speaking, we have been brought back to complete union with God, with no imperfection of the spirit at all. There is not a "good self" and a "bad self" warring within you. The battle is external; it is with the devil and his demons, not with your own spirit. The thing is that Christians still do have the flesh, which is not perfect, and with which they can sin. But I submit that the temptation to sin does not come from within yourself, but from demons and Satan. If we sin, it is because we have allowed ourselves to be deceived by him, and thus the temptation worked. I cannot use "oh, it's just my old sin nature" as an excuse. I have to face up to it and said "I know what's right, but I listened to the old devil anyway".

What I believe is that when Christ suffered in the Garden of Gethsemne, he was paying the price for all the sins(spiritual death) of the world, every single person, he felt every pain that is possible to feel, so whatever we go through in this life every feeling every pain, Jesus Christ has felt it, and through this, Jesus paid the price of our sins which makes it possible for us repent of our sins, and become clean. If Jesus did not fullfill this we would not be able to repent of our sins and we would die in our sins. When Jesus died for us on the cross, he overcame death, and was resurrected(physical death) Jesus made it possible for all to be ressuerrected, it is a free gift for everybody to be resurrected.But, the spiritual death depends on how we live our lives which will determine if we live with God again, if we are not clean, if we do not stay away from sin, we can not live with God because we are not clean to live with him. This time we have on earth is a test, God is testing us if we will obey his word, his law, and we will be judged for this time on earth. Were not just here for the heck of it, we have a purpose on earth.

 

[redkat]

She is at the age when most mental illness manifests. I'm not saying it wasn't a demon I am saying she needs medical help at least for assesment. If you are against psychiatrists then make sure she lets her general practitioner know that she is having suicidal thoughts. Talking to your minister is a great start but if she is suicidal I'm sure you want to take all the action you can to help her right?

Please this is a subject that hits very close to home for me dont wait and lose someone you love. You will not get her back on this earth at least. If she had cancer you would take her to a doctor I'm sure. Mental illness is a disease and needs to be treated as such.

When someone is in the midst of a crisis like this they need an advocate someone to get them to help. It sounds like YOU are the one that she needs right now to step up and do what is right for HER.

I will pray for you both!

 

[u2bonogirl]

If you read enough of my diary and old poetry you would see the reality of mental illness being a real disease
I was once suicidal and it took a lot to drag me out of that. So I can relate to this thread as well, from the girls place anyway
There wasnt actually anybody around to want to help me when I was going through it

 

[80sU2isBest]

First of all I didnt mean to come off like that, judging your beliefs, sorry about that.

I accept your apology. It's just that I really hate it when people say they can sin all they want because they're Christians, and that's why it upset me that you said that about me. But I forgive you.

When we are in a state of sinning, the Holy Ghost can not abide with us, he is not with us, and we are open to devil, and his temptaions.

I do have a question to ask you. When a person becomes a Christian, the Bible says that the "old man", the "old self", the "sin nature" is crucified. It doesn't say, as one of my teachers once misquoted to me, that it "is in a state of being crucified"; it says that it "has been crucified". That's the past. It is dead. Also, Paul says that when a person becomes a Christian, the Holy Spirit breathes life into the spirit and the body. The Bible says that we have become new creations, and that we have a new nature, created by Christ, in fact it is the nature of Christ. The Bible also says that we are vessels that contain the Holy Spirit. Pauls said "I am crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me". So, the Bible definitely tells us that the Holy Spirit lives through us. So, if the Holy Spirit can leave us, what happens to us? What we were before we become Christians is dead. Can it be brought back to life somehow? Is that Biblical? If Christ made us totally new creations, destroyed our old nature and gave us a new one, and all of this was done completely by him, and we couldn't do a thing to help him, how is that any of it can be undone? If the Holy Spirit left me, I would drop dead, because there would be nothing left to sustain my flesh - I would have no spirit, because my spirit is joined with his.

 

[u2bonogirl]

part of the new nature is even having the desire to abandon our old ways of sinning
I know that I had no desire to change anything about my sinful nature before I came back to God, and now I see worse and worse things about myself every day and i want to change them
Its like the closer you get to god, the worse you see yourself
Two key terms are sanctification and justification
Through the sacrifice of Jesus you have been justified in the eyes of God. Made new
Sanctification is the ongoing process of becoming more holy and like God. This is something that never ends, and we should never stop seeking

 

[-macphisto-]

If the Holy Spirit left me, I would drop dead, because there would be nothing left to sustain my flesh - I would have no spirit, because my spirit is joined with his.

So all the time before you were baptised you never really lived?

 

[-macphisto-]

I do have a question to ask you. When a person becomes a Christian, the Bible says that the "old man", the "old self", the "sin nature" is crucified. It doesn't say, as one of my teachers once misquoted to me, that it "is in a state of being crucified"; it says that it "has been crucified". That's the past. It is dead.

How do you become a Christian? Is it when you decide you want to be baptised and recieve the Holy Ghost and make a covenant unto God? Or how is it for you? It is true when you are baptised you are washed clean of all your sins, just as a new born baby, clean and pure, a new chance, a new oppurtunity.

 

[u2bonogirl]

The bible says that we were spiritually dead before becoming a child of God

 

[-macphisto-]

The bible says that we were spiritually dead before becoming a child of God

no entiendo?

 

[redkat]

One more thought shart, if you are still reading.

I believe that God works in many ways using the people around us. Do you think maybe God made you to post here to receive all of this advice from so many. The answer you have been given is to get help for her as well as the prayers we will offer.

 

[beli]

Shart, when the Christian Brothers imploded many of the Brothers went on to study at Uni to become psychologist/counsellors. (as an example) ie there are people who are Brothers, Fathers and Psychologists. Ask your local minister/priest for a referal.

I do hope your girlfriend receives help. She sounds like she needs it.

PS I haven't read all of this thread as I'm an atheist and this all too foreign for me to comprehend. Apologies if the psychologist/godless issue had already been resolved.

peace

 

[80sU2isBest]

that was not actually my quote but someone elses
I know plenty about sin, trust me! My church has focal points on the gospel, and sin.

Unfortuantely, I'd sya that every person knows plenty about sin, because we've all sinned plenty.

We cant expect to be automatically changed as a result of salvation.

Well actually we are changed automatically, at least as far as the spirit is concerned. 2 Cor. 5:17 tells us that "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away and all things are made new". As I said previously, there are also many verses which tell us that the old nature has been crucified and that a new nature is in its place. That's the act of being "born again". It is a one-time act, as Paul put it, of passing "from death unto life". So yes, we are changed automatically.

However, as far as the flesh is concerned, we are not changed automatically. The flesh is still very capable of sin. But it is not mandatory. And it is not your nature that causes you to sin, because the new nature is the nature of Christ. The nature of a person is that which drives him. As Christians, we are by nature "driven" to do what's right. We don't always obey the new nature, because we still have free will and emotions and can succumb to the devil's temptation. But your nature does not "drive you to sin" anymore. You don't want to, if you are a Christian. Sometimes it may seem like yo want to, but that's the demons whispering in your ear. When Paul talks about the struggle between sinning and doing God's will, he never puts it in terms of "well, I want to do right, but I also want to do wrong". No, in fact, when he is talking about sinning he describes it as "doing what he does not want to do".

Its work. Lots
We have the sprit to help us and guide and protect us, but it definitely wont act for us

It doesn't have to be work, though. That's not what God intended. He wants us to put complete trust in him to do the work through us. That's why Christ said "Come to me all ye who are burdened and heavy laden, and I will give you rest." He was talking about freedom form the law, and the merit-based system of rewards and punishment that legalism brings.

If we put our complete trust in him, surrender to him, read the Bible and pray, give our desires over to him,and have faith, he will act through us. In fact, that's exactly what he wants; He wants us to be totally dependent on him. Throughout the entire Old Testament, people struggled and struggled to do good things and do what was right. But they couldn't; no matter how hard they tried, they were never good enough. That's why Christ came to die; because he knew we are doomed under our own power. The Holy Spirit is within us for a reason. He is real power. He is the power to choose right over wrong. What Christ desires is that each one of do what Bono says "IF I want to live, I've got to die to myself someday". Christ wants us to put our self away and let him take control. We need to give him the keys to the car and let him drive, so to speak. Paul understood this, and that's why he said "It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me."

I have no idea if Im helping in this conversation in the least bit

Of course you are, I'm enjoying our conversation.

Good night for now.