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Old 05-13-2007, 12:23 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by trevster2k


My response to that is "Better to rule in hell then serve in heaven" That really pisses 'em off or makes 'em pray harder for me.
Learned that. Will try next time. Thanks.

Seriously, the stick and the carrot, they really tried damn hard to convert us, didn't they?
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:52 AM   #17
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Y'know, their tactics are disrespectful, but if your mom wants them to go away, she'll tell them. If they don't respond, she'll tell them again, whether you're there to "protect" her or not.

You're making it sound like they're trying to get her to shoot up some heroin. I've never been able to understand atheists' fear of faith.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:05 AM   #18
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Originally posted by martha

You're making it sound like they're trying to get her to shoot up some heroin. I've never been able to understand atheists' fear of faith.
I don't read it as it's purely fear. Rather, it's kind of deep frustration, at the same time, still wanted to be respectful to others.

You know, I could do 100 times worse than dazzlingamy did, if some one did the same thing to my family. Simply because we grow up in different culture environment, and I have less ethical rules in my mind, probably, than most of people registered in this forum.

However, I deeply aware of letting the anger leaks out might have hurt inter-personal relationship and losing support and friendship from others. It is fear, not to the religious faith, but to the faith of being a socially responsible person.



And for the folks who don't read it, there' re two versions of translation: First one is more based on the meaning, and the second one is more literally translated.

1. Do as you would be done by others

2. Do not do to others what you do not want others to do to you

Do you want people following down the street, knocking at your doors, lecturing in your lounge room, to convert you to give up your religious belief, because it's psychological opium, all the church did was to brain wash you, so they could have make a live from your money?

And if you don't want to listen to these, don't do the same to us. Thanks.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:43 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by martha


You're making it sound like they're trying to get her to shoot up some heroin. I've never been able to understand atheists' fear of faith.
That's a great response. I absolutely abhor the way these folks dealt with it, I agree that it shouldn't be dealt with any type of agressive behavior.
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Old 05-13-2007, 02:41 AM   #20
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Originally posted by anitram
I remember being approached by this campus Christian group. They were polite enough so I listened to the two girls for maybe 5 minutes and took their pamphlet. Then they invited me to some sort of weekly dinner they sponsor to bring others "into the fold of Christ's love" or some such. I declined and told them I wasn't interested. They persisted and I told them I really wasn't the religious type. And they looked at me incredulously, and asked "But, don't you want to be saved?"
I think there's something extremely arrogant about people coming at your door to tell you how to live your life, but I usually let them say their bit because I know they mean well and most of them are very nice and polite (even up to the point where it makes me a bit nauseous). However, when I tell them I'm not interested, I do expect them to get the message and move on. Unfortunately, most of the times I have to debate a few issues with them before they finally hit the road.
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Old 05-13-2007, 06:48 AM   #21
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega

I also hate all kinds of missionary. [/B]
Thanks, Vincent.

I always thought we got along pretty well. . .
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Old 05-13-2007, 06:53 AM   #22
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Re: Re: Fear of recruiting christians

Quote:
Originally posted by butter7


I often got a feeling that these jesus-selling people actually pray for the world to be worse, others' lives to be miserable, so that they could make you one of their kind.
Surely you must be kidding. . .


Quote:
Originally posted by butter7
In fact, it's pretty interesting to see these things to happen, and I think the main difference between atheists and christians are, as to me, atheists would be happy and satisfied with the love right in front of their eyes, they need nothing more than a happy life, and they knew that's the one and only thing they should trasure. Christians, on the other hand, always felt lost and kind of empty in their heart, because they always need someone, who is in their imagination to comfort them.

Set up a lot of straw men, do you? This has got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read. These kinds of broad mischaracterizations are wrong when Christians make them about atheists. They are just as wrong when atheists make them about believers.
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Old 05-13-2007, 07:01 AM   #23
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Re: Fear of recruiting christians

Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
Ok, my mum who is also an atheist has a friend, who is quite christian. Now as i've said in the past, I don't mind if people are religious, I just don't want to talk about it with them, or have it shoved in my face (wearng the cross and thanking God doesn't constitute shoving it in my face for the nitpickers)

Now this woman, has been trying to get my mum to go to some of her christian meetings and mum has respectfully declined, as well, she isn't a believer, nor does she want to be one. Now my mum is in her middle 50's, lives alone (well did, until we moved back in) and lives a crazy stressful and rather lonely life. This woman has been getting increasingly forceful with her comments about mum's life and I feel preying on my mums insecurities (being alone) by making it seem like only welcoming jesus into her life will make her feel better.

Yesterday she left 3 msgs in the space of two hours on the answering machine telling mum she had something "really" important to tell her, and when mum got back she said she had popped in an the woman was there with a few of her friends and they tried to get mum to admit she needed jesus and go to church with them!! Mum was laughing, but I AM NOT. My mother is a strong woman, but i am scared that these people will prey on her weaknesses, and when i go overseas i won't be here to protect her from them. You may think its a harsh thing to say, but nothing good can come from this. I feel sick at their sly advances, trying to "recruit" my mum, and feel its totally against what they preach, about understanding and evertything. Why would you want to bully someone into your religion? What good would that do them to be coerced and made to feel shit about themselves in order to believe.

I understand if you want to spread "his" word, but i feel like these people are going about it all the wrong way, and I really want to say something to them, but don't want to get down and have some dirty slanging match, which im sure it will turn into, as im really REALLY pissed at this.

Why do some people do this? I don't understand the concept behind it at all.
I'm not really sure either. As a Christian AND a missionary the tactics you describe are really deplorable to me. . .I would never condone them, or really any kind "tactics". I don't think "tactics" or "strategies" have any place in Christian faith. Unfortunately, there are many Christians who feel otherwise.

I suspect that your mom's friends are well-intentioned (i.e. they sincerely believe they are offering something of value to your mom) but certainly overzealous. I'm sorry she has to put up with that and that it is a source of stress to you.

These issues have been on my mind a lot lately. I'm thinking to post a journal entry on it but I haven't had the time to organize my thoughts on it. . .I'll let you know when I do though, and I'd welcome your comments on it. I did write an entry about two months ago about my experience going door to door with my church. . .check it out if you're interested in a perspective from the "other side."
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Old 05-13-2007, 07:20 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Thanks, Vincent.

I always thought we got along pretty well. . .
Maybe you could elaborate a bit on the advantages of missionising people and I would get a better understanding.

I'm sorry if that hurt you. But do you know, on the other hand, how it might hurt people if someone knocked at their door, tried to sell them some religion and then said things like the "lakes of fire", "you won't be saved" or whatever.

I know, there are many who don't use this as an argument.

I didn't know that my personal perceptions are so hurtful.

So, please educate me on missionisation.

Rethinking, the word "hate" might be a bit harsh sounding.
It's not as if I hated the people doing that, and having done a job as a sales man myself I think a whole lot different from door knockers than many do I know.
I don't know the exact word or phrase to describe it.

I just feel a bit uncomfortable, uneasy, awkward, I don't know, about people trying to sell me their religion.

Of course, even religion has to make aware of itself. And I try to blind out the history of churches and the way they missionised in former times.
But I also think they have to accept that faith is a bit more than buying some product, or like I "sold", doing a Child Sponsorship.
Faith goes so much deeper, and when people have found their faith, or came to the conclusion that they do not believe, it should be fine.

I really didn't want to hurt anyone, and am sorry that I probably came across a bit harsh used, and I hope that you don't bear grudges on me.

I always liked your posts, and think that you are, like yolland, one of the most eloquent posters who always seems to keep the overall picture right and give very objective statements. So I would be happy if we could get along well in future as well.
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Old 05-13-2007, 07:28 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by butter7




I don't know why I got misunderstood all the time...

You won't buy everything that sales man thought you MUST have, will you?

Of course it's not about virus, it's about the attitude of these company. Because they are seeking the opportunities to sell you things, and yes, they live on your agony. The link between anti-virus company and christian belief is that if there was no virus in this world, the anti-virus software is useless. Same logic, if everyone is feeling happy and satisfied from the bottom of the heart, religion will have no market. No matter if it is a payed software, or a "free ware".

End of rant. I hope that can help with clearing something, a bit off topic though....
I don't buy everything, but I do buy things that protect me when I can't protect myself.
A firewall or anti virus program is part of that.
Before some companies started to make anti virus software, and again, some of them don't charge you for using this software, there were viruses. So something had to be done.
The viruses are software, created everyday in thousands. Others are trojans, spyware, or whatever. You can have all the love in your heart, that won't keep a virus from getting into your computer.
I've lost a whole HDD to a virus. I had love, the virus killed the HDD. So I have to do something.

If there was no one that made, and updated, anti virus software, viruses would still be there. Only way to protect your computer would then be to unplug your internet access.
So I really don't get that analogy.
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Old 05-13-2007, 07:54 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega


I don't buy everything, but I do buy things that protect me when I can't protect myself.
A firewall or anti virus program is part of that.
Before some companies started to make anti virus software, and again, some of them don't charge you for using this software, there were viruses. So something had to be done.
The viruses are software, created everyday in thousands. Others are trojans, spyware, or whatever. You can have all the love in your heart, that won't keep a virus from getting into your computer.
I've lost a whole HDD to a virus. I had love, the virus killed the HDD. So I have to do something.

If there was no one that made, and updated, anti virus software, viruses would still be there. Only way to protect your computer would then be to unplug your internet access.
So I really don't get that analogy.
okay, I'll try list this time, because I got a feeling that you only read the first two sentence from my posts. All points are equal important.

1. My point is NOT about virus, my point is about selling religion to others that might not need.

2. I believe you make selection about anti-virus software you use, too. You didn't install all of them, did you? Same as religion, you make choice to find the one that most suits you, or, choose to have none.

3. I had no anti-virus software, firewalls while I was on windows98 laptop, 2 years ago. Never had any virus/trojan problem. And I'm still not believe in any religion, never had any problem with my life either.

4. Why use the word 'sell'? Because it's different from you find the religion and say...wow...that's what I'm looking for. It is someone stand at your doors, lecturing you for half hour about how you should live your life. Same as someone stand at the same place, telling you why you really should try their products.

5. This is the LAST time I reply on this confusion. I really hope this time it worked. Or, please tell yourself that someone is too dull to make a right comparison. I don't mind that really.
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Old 05-13-2007, 08:04 AM   #27
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Re: Re: Re: Fear of recruiting christians

Quote:
Originally posted by maycocksean


Surely you must be kidding. . .

Set up a lot of straw men, do you? This has got to be one of the most ridiculous statements I've ever read. These kinds of broad mischaracterizations are wrong when Christians make them about atheists. They are just as wrong when atheists make them about believers.
Maybe. According to individual, I must say. Some individuals that I met were definitely gone too far. I understand that it is not accurate to use small samples and apply the result to big groups. However, there is a question: Why it's always THEM?

I make good friend with some buddhists, especially with a Zen teacher. Never got any problem with my hindu classmates, either. None of them have persisted me to believe in to their religion.
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Old 05-13-2007, 08:09 AM   #28
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No, when I reply someone I normally read every sentence. Only sometimes I tend to forget one sentence to include, but I don't read only the first two sentences.

And I just think that the analogy is flawed.

Of course you only use one anti virus software. Having installed more than one is worse because they rather fight each other. It diminishes the security.
I've had viruses, and I know others who had viruses. And so I protect myself. If you go without, and are lucky to stay virus free, congratulations.

I don't believe as well, but I think the analogy is just flawed. When you believe, or do not believe, you made up your mind and most probably got into some deep thinking about it. Religion, as well as Atheism, isn't something you just wear, or decide to get for yourself, but it's something that comes from a deep point inside yourself. One might say it' the soul, the other might say it's the brain, and A_Wanderer probably would tell you which part of the brain exactly got you belief, or not.

You don't get religion or atheism the way you install an anti virus software, and you have different intentions for both.

I didn't have a problem with my life, eiher. But your third point sounds as if you meant, religion is just something people "install" when they got into trouble. That might be the case for some, but most certainly not for most. To get a anti virus software after your computer ran into a problem would be too late.

And on a side note, a well programmed trojan works on your computer without you recognizing it. A virus might be on your computer and you don't realize it either.
And it's a great possibility that your computer has become part of a spam bot. That's for internet security.

It's a pity that you don't want to discuss it further, but I wanted to make clear that I indeed read your posts, but don't think the analogy works that well.
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Old 05-13-2007, 08:22 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
No, when I reply someone I normally read every sentence. Only sometimes I tend to forget one sentence to include, but I don't read only the first two sentences.

And I just think that the analogy is flawed.

Of course you only use one anti virus software. Having installed more than one is worse because they rather fight each other. It diminishes the security.
I've had viruses, and I know others who had viruses. And so I protect myself. If you go without, and are lucky to stay virus free, congratulations.

I don't believe as well, but I think the analogy is just flawed. When you believe, or do not believe, you made up your mind and most probably got into some deep thinking about it. Religion, as well as Atheism, isn't something you just wear, or decide to get for yourself, but it's something that comes from a deep point inside yourself. One might say it' the soul, the other might say it's the brain, and A_Wanderer probably would tell you which part of the brain exactly got you belief, or not.

You don't get religion or atheism the way you install an anti virus software, and you have different intentions for both.

I didn't have a problem with my life, eiher. But your third point sounds as if you meant, religion is just something people "install" when they got into trouble. That might be the case for some, but most certainly not for most. To get a anti virus software after your computer ran into a problem would be too late.

And on a side note, a well programmed trojan works on your computer without you recognizing it. A virus might be on your computer and you don't realize it either.
And it's a great possibility that your computer has become part of a spam bot. That's for internet security.

It's a pity that you don't want to discuss it further, but I wanted to make clear that I indeed read your posts, but don't think the analogy works that well.
Now I got you point. Sorry, it seems that I'm the one that confused all the time...

I didn't thought people would really look at the useage of anti-virus software, becaue by the time I was only wanted to do the comparison of the people who knocking your door and persist you to accept their religion to the sales man that stand at the same place try to get you to buy their products. And, might because I'm on a computer, so I wrote anti-virus software.

I only used the selling as a form, not really the usage of anti-virus software and religion.

plus, as for trojan, it's very different from virus. I have never got a virus for about 3 years or even longer, but instead I got trojans.

Trojan can do most of things that virus can do, plus, some of trojans are designed to control your computer. And the second one, which usually don't want to be noticed. To name one of the most famous one: Hui Ge Zi, or, the grey dove. Norton (corporate version)still couldn't handle it.
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Old 05-13-2007, 08:26 AM   #30
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Amy, your mum is going to feel it, or she won't. If she doesn't feel it and they keep at her, then she's going to end up annoyed or having to tell them very clearly. If she does end up feeling it (converting), there's not much you can or should do. She'll do whatever she feels right doing. Trust her. You don't have to trust the others, just your mum.
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