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Old 10-24-2001, 07:37 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Holy John:
And if I'm wrong,
Don't play with my mind like that! We all know you are NEVER wrong!

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Old 10-25-2001, 03:10 AM   #32
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Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
I'm not sure where you're going with this, Rono


I thought that you have no problems with torturing. Any way, if you accept a barbaric thing like torture, it will be easy to do it the next time again and say, it is for the good cause. And before you now it, your children will be next...



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Old 10-25-2001, 03:21 AM   #33
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Tapping phone lines is just one of the things the soviet union used to do.
I think America is headed in that direction though, we may have to change the name of this country to the USSA in the furture if we dont start fighting back.
Also, i didnt mention all of the rights that are being trampled on. Those were just a few that came to mind at the time. Americans have actually been killed by the US government(i'm not talking about the military here) for bizarre reasons as a matter of fact. Not to mention arrested, had their lives turned into sheer hell...Its scary.
And the right to privacy is extraordinarily important. We are not terrorists, and we are not going to be treated as such.
If these restrictions are only temporary, i wouldnt be so offended. But then, what is the point of temporary security measures? What we need to do is find security measures that actually work but that do not infringe on any decnt persons rights. Sky marshals and K-9 units(bomb sniffing dogs, etc) are a couple of them. But not allowing sharp objects such as razors on board a plane is insane and stupid, at best. ANYTHING can be turned into a weapon. You dont even need a weapon to hijack a plane. Words(threats) will do just fine. And they did.
If the hijackers had been told they could not bring box cutters on board those flights, it wouldnt have made much of a difference. Banning sharp objects couldnt save those people. SKY MARSHALS COULD HAVE. Too bad the government and the airlines are simply too stupid and too damned greedy and thoughtless to have put them on board in the past. Its not like this is some sort of radical technology that is only now available.
I say we round up the guilty Americans and drop them over Afganistan and kill 2 birds with one stone - er, bomb.

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[This message has been edited by WARCHILD (edited 10-24-2001).]
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Old 10-25-2001, 02:25 PM   #34
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Originally posted by wolfwill23:
Some of the stuff you people have written makes me sick! Oh, waah, civil liberties for terrorists. This is fucking war!!! We did not ask for this war, but we're going to give it to them. As far as I'm concerned, let the torture begin
Heil Hitler,

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Old 10-25-2001, 04:43 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono:
Heil Hitler,
Careful what you say, Rono.

I take it that this comment is meant sardonically--that is, you're comparing the torture of suspects to the Third Reich.

But Hitler executed millions of Jews for being Jewish. (He did the same to other categories of people, and to various other unlucky persons, too.)

While I'm against torturing the 800 or so suspects we have in custody now (remember, they're being detained for a reason--the FBI suspects that they were involved or at least know something), there's no basis for comparison with Hitler's rule.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-25-2001).]
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Old 10-25-2001, 06:01 PM   #36
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Originally posted by WARCHILD:
They want to read our email, install Carnivore, Echelon, etc. They want to tap phone lines, we cant send letters to service members anymore, restricting our access to airports, cant use public computers anymore without practically submitting to a background check, theyre acting like they practically want to have SS#'s tatooed on our foreheads. And it may only get worse.
We cant let terrorists *or* the government do things like that to us.

In Sports Illustrated near the beginning of the year, they mentioned that the FBI suspected ObL and al-Qaeda of communicating via sports bulletin boards and chat rooms on the internet. Make of this what you will.
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Old 10-25-2001, 08:52 PM   #37
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I wonder what teams they pull for?
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Old 10-25-2001, 09:12 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
In Sports Illustrated near the beginning of the year, they mentioned that the FBI suspected ObL and al-Qaeda of communicating via sports bulletin boards and chat rooms on the internet. Make of this what you will.
Oh yes, the FBI, CIA, and NSA( as well as God knows how many other government agencies) knew all about the impending attacks. yet they did nothing. The question is...WHY?????


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Old 10-25-2001, 09:15 PM   #39
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And the Taliban is a hell of a lot closer to being Hitler than the US military...

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Old 10-25-2001, 10:31 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by WARCHILD:
Oh yes, the FBI, CIA, and NSA( as well as God knows how many other government agencies) knew all about the impending attacks. yet they did nothing. The question is...WHY?????


What is your basis for this bold claim?
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Old 10-26-2001, 06:08 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono:
How many of the 800 suspects are arabic ?

Dunno. How many Arabic persons in the US haven't been detained by the FBI?
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Old 10-27-2001, 01:34 AM   #42
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Rono:

Are you suggest that we extend the search to Amish people in Pennsylvania and African-American farmers in rural Alabama?

~U2Alabama
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Old 10-27-2001, 02:16 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
What is your basis for this bold claim?
His basis is that it's apparent now that the CIA was very aware something was up in the weeks before the attack. They've admitted this. The problem is that WARCHILD's statement implies that they knew the who, what, when, and where of it...of course that's not true.
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Old 10-27-2001, 02:54 AM   #44
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I don't believe the soon-to-be-passed wire-tapping bill will tread too fully on our civil liberties. If it does, we have a balanced enough court system to root it out; and at least, this law may be in place just long enough to serve the greater good.

And on the issue of torture... all I can say is, God bless National Review.

From the vast mind of Jonah Goldberg, in an article dated October 12th:

Torture is against the law in Israel (we can't say the same about most, if not all, of her neighbors). But Israel's Supreme Court grants an exception, the so-called "ticking bomb" excuse. If Israeli authorities are positive there's a bomb about to go off somewhere which will kill untold numbers of innocents, they can use "physical pressure" or some other sanitized euphemism for torture on someone in their custody, if he has information about how to prevent it.

Imagine if the FBI announced that we were in a similar position on September 10, but we declined to whack the guy around "because torture is always wrong." Six thousand people die; the country loses billions of dollars which could have been spent more productively. Hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs, and hundreds of millions live in fear. Do you think the guy who made the decision not to fill a pillow case with a bunch of oranges and make like Barry Bonds would come out a national hero? Do you think the gang at an NYPD funeral would say, "Hey there goes the conscience of the nation!"?


Is lying bad? Yes.

Is torture bad? Yes.

Is lying sometimes justified? Yes -- ask the Jews saved by Oskar Schindler.

Is torture sometimes justified? You tell me -- if you believed that the torture of a terrorist thug could save potentially thousands of American men, women, and children, would you STILL hold back?

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[This message has been edited by Achtung Bubba (edited 10-26-2001).]
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Old 10-27-2001, 03:22 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by speedracer:
Careful what you say, Rono.

I take it that this comment is meant sardonically--that is, you're comparing the torture of suspects to the Third Reich.

But Hitler executed millions of Jews for being Jewish. (He did the same to other categories of people, and to various other unlucky persons, too.)

While I'm against torturing the 800 or so suspects we have in custody now (remember, they're being detained for a reason--the FBI suspects that they were involved or at least know something), there's no basis for comparison with Hitler's rule.

[This message has been edited by speedracer (edited 10-25-2001).]
How many of the 800 suspects are arabic ?

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