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Old 10-23-2001, 05:28 AM   #16
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Torture is a reality of war. If the US resorts to this practice, and OBL is caught based on intelligence derived from it, then SO BE IT.
So, you are saying we should dispose of our respect for human dignity and the respect for human life that we hold so dea,r and claim to be defending just because it's inconvient?

Your reasoning is the same kind that is used to justify slamming planes into skyscrapers.

[This message has been edited by DoctorGonzo (edited 10-23-2001).]
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Old 10-23-2001, 05:46 AM   #17
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Originally posted by DoctorGonzo:
So, you are saying we should dispose of our respect for human dignity and the respect for human life that we hold so dea,r and claim to be defending just because it's inconvient?


DG,
According to HJ and others, we show very little of the above anyway. And AGAIN, we are at war. Suffering during conflict has many faces. Sorry if you don't like them all.


Your reasoning is the same kind that is used to justify slamming planes into skyscrapers.

There really is no comparison between killing 5000 or so innocent people, and torturing a few dozen uncooperative suspects.

I'm tired of US critics saying "America is no better than any other country", while at the same time trying to hold the US to comparitively higher moral standards. You can't have it both ways. Given who our enemy is, this is a fight that, unfortunately, requires the US to get down and wrestle around in the mud. I don't mind us getting a little dirty.


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Old 10-23-2001, 07:55 AM   #18
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Can't we go the drug route without torturing them?
And be open about it...if you are caught and the authorities have resonable suspicions...you will be drugged for information..
Of course that can be abuse as well...but wouldn't the suspects at least be left intact aftwards with no bruises..
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Old 10-23-2001, 11:19 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by StarsnStripes:

I'm tired of US critics saying "America is no better than any other country", while at the same time trying to hold the US to comparitively higher moral standards. You can't have it both ways.
Well, then, why don't we just throw away our civility and start torturing the terrorist suspects we're holding. Maybe we should pull their teeth out with pliers. Indeed, it's too much of a pain in the ass to maintain the high moral standards we've held thus far.

[Edited for my good friend speedracer]

[This message has been edited by pub crawler (edited 10-23-2001).]
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Old 10-23-2001, 02:09 PM   #20
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Originally posted by StarsnStripes:
There really is no comparison between killing 5000 or so innocent people, and torturing a few dozen uncooperative suspects.


If you tollerate this your children will be next. ( manic street preachers )

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Old 10-23-2001, 02:40 PM   #21
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I dont really care if evil people are tortured. But...I must say that all of our rights that we are being asked to give up these days is awfully spooky. It almost makes me think that the US government allowed the attacks to happen, or even was in cahoots with the terrorists as part of a larger plan.
Anyone have Oliver Stone's address???

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Old 10-23-2001, 04:16 PM   #22
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Originally posted by WARCHILD:
I dont really care if evil people are tortured. But...I must say that all of our rights that we are being asked to give up these days is awfully spooky. It almost makes me think that the US government allowed the attacks to happen, or even was in cahoots with the terrorists as part of a larger plan.
Anyone have Oliver Stone's address???
What rights are you being asked to give up?

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Old 10-23-2001, 09:39 PM   #23
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Old 10-23-2001, 10:29 PM   #24
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They want to read our email, install Carnivore, Echelon, etc. They want to tap phone lines, we cant send letters to service members anymore, restricting our access to airports, cant use public computers anymore without practically submitting to a background check, theyre acting like they practically want to have SS#'s tatooed on our foreheads. And it may only get worse.
We cant let terrorists *or* the government do things like that to us.

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Old 10-23-2001, 11:13 PM   #25
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StarsNStripes.. I completely agree with you, And when it comes down to it.. I think the majority of this country does too.. i was just in a Dental School interview.. Something that is supposed to be professional, and Rigid in Conversation.. and the last thing my endodontist said to me.. as our conversation turned to the trade towers.. 'If They're going into Afghanistan, they just need to go all the way, take them all out..' and in reference to Bin Laden.. 'I want His Head on a Plate'.. Hah, i almost crapped in my pants.. but honestly it's true.. These guys play by different rules.. Rules that far exceed anything lawful or civil that we could ever do to catch them... They have no qualms about killing or torturing one.. much less a million americans .. And sadly, the only way to beat them is .. well to kill them.. and use any means necessary to get rid of them.. Even from what Bono was saying, as he went on for about ten minutes .. which is great cuz it's more of the one riff.. He never made any mention about how to specifically stop these terrorists.. as he spoke about how to have it not happen.. These guys Al queada(forgive my mispelling)... and others like saddam.. There's no way to achieve peace with them.. Well, there is one.. and that is to Get rid of them.. The last thing we need is for Osama and omar, and the rest of these guys to be taken hostage in our legal system, and have some sort of long drawn out trial.. geez, that'd be a nightmare.. But so, using torture .. if it will lead to an answer to stop the terrorism.. well, then, by all means... and the truth is.. none of us would ever know.. Shame on this liberal media for presenting every single fact that they can get their hands on.. Just because us americans are 'curious'.. Screw curiousity .. Just take care of it.. These specials on ABC talking about other locations for terrorists hit spots.. roadways, or other such things.. Quit giving them ideas... Because, how would any of you like to be the victim of Bin Laden's next attack.. Or, give him an AK, and I'll send anyone up.. armed with a dove to him to try and maneuver for peace... Good Luck..
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Old 10-24-2001, 12:08 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono:
If you tollerate this your children will be next. ( manic street preachers )
I'm not sure where you're going with this, Rono


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Old 10-24-2001, 02:55 AM   #27
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Originally posted by WARCHILD:
They want to read our email, install Carnivore, Echelon, etc. They want to tap phone lines, we cant send letters to service members anymore, restricting our access to airports, cant use public computers anymore without practically submitting to a background check, theyre acting like they practically want to have SS#'s tatooed on our foreheads. And it may only get worse.
We cant let terrorists *or* the government do things like that to us.
I'm not real big on government getting into our computers, but hey, things like Echelon are already there. If they want something they can get it. Now. Making mention of it is simply being polite...or formal, trying to legalize it. But already if they want it they've got access to it.

I wasn't aware of sending letters to service members, but that's hardly infringing upon your rights. You think that will last forever? C'mon. A very reasonable precaution for the time being I would say.

Not sure what public computers you're trying to use, but I've had no trouble there. I doubt that's a federal thing as much as it is local/state in some areas.

Certainly it is something we need to watch out for, but you haven't had any civil liberties stepped on. The ACLU would have you believe everything (which furthers their agenda) is a civil liberty infringement. Hardly. But again, I agree that it isn't something that should get out of hand...having said that, it's also something that could sneak up on us.

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Old 10-24-2001, 08:01 AM   #28
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One thing no one has mentioned yet is the article also states that they are expecting most of these suspects to be proved innocent. Of course my first thought if I had detained a few hundred suspected inncocents would be to torture them through the use of drugs and other means to extricate the info out of them. Did anyone else read this the same way?

One other point Im pondering is innocent until proven guilty. I know this is the American way, but even though these individuals aren't necessarily US citizens, is this waived in their case? Perhaps International Law isn't like America's innocent until proven guilty. What the hell point is there in getting info if you can't submit it in a court of law?

On the other side of the coin is the fact that certain suspects aren't saying a word. Deafening silence imo is an unknown quantity in a case like this. If these folks are so expectedly innocent, why the hell aren't they talking? Folks who have nothing to hide are either willing to fudge their story to paint themselves as wrongly accused, or focus so much blame the heat is put on someone else. If, of course they can prove total innocence. So basically what Im wondering at is these law agencies (FBI) have rounded up 800 or so people. They are claiming they will be not guilty. Lets face it, the FBI know more than they ever let on, they arrested them for a reason, the suspects are suspiciously quiet, but these agencies now back pedal on their question of guilt? None of this makes a great deal of sense. Consider all this then think of the section where it states that they do suspect more terrorist activity is planned.

Anyway, Im off the track re: this debate.

I'll go back to my pondering about the morality of torture in this advanced day and age.
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Old 10-24-2001, 05:46 PM   #29
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For bringing the terrorists to international court, I say this: It is impossible. Afghanistan has no rule of law at all in their country so bringing terrorists to court would be impossible and the idea of having an actual police unit of any kind go in and take the terrorists is insane, the Taliban will just slaughter them, that is how the Taliban has worked in the past. The US military themselves predict a very hard time finding and capturing bin laden and they are the military so the idea a police unit could do it is ridiculous. Bin Laden is being surrounded now by an army of around 3,000 men. A police unit going in there to take him spells disaster. And bringing him to an international court will only put him up on a higher pedistol in the public view, killing him right away would make the public think less and less of him sooner.

~rougerum

[This message has been edited by rougerum (edited 10-24-2001).]
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Old 10-24-2001, 05:57 PM   #30
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Some of the stuff you people have written makes me sick! Oh, waah, civil liberties for terrorists. This is fucking war!!! We did not ask for this war, but we're going to give it to them. As far as I'm concerned, let the torture begin

Now, for all of you people who just want to love each other, let me ask you, how do we defeat these terrorists?
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