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Old 10-06-2003, 03:37 PM   #31
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read the report

David Kay...

We have discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002. The discovery of these deliberate concealment efforts have come about both through the admissions of Iraqi scientists and officials concerning information they deliberately withheld and through physical evidence of equipment and activities that ISG has discovered that should have been declared to the UN.


Excerpts:

* A clandestine network of laboratories and safehouses within the Iraqi Intelligence Service that contained equipment subject to UN monitoring and suitable for continuing CBW research.

* A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN.

* Reference strains of biological organisms concealed in a scientist's home, one of which can be used to produce biological weapons.

* New research on BW-applicable agents, Brucella and Congo Crimean Hemorrhagic Fever (CCHF), and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin were not declared to the UN.

* Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS).

* A line of UAVs not fully declared at an undeclared production facility and an admission that they had tested one of their declared UAVs out to a range of 500 km, 350 km beyond the permissible limit.

* Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN.

* Plans and advanced design work for new long-range missiles with ranges up to at least 1000 km - well beyond the 150 km range limit imposed by the UN. Missiles of a 1000 km range would have allowed Iraq to threaten targets through out the Middle East, including Ankara, Cairo, and Abu Dhabi.

* Clandestine attempts between late-1999 and 2002 to obtain from North Korea technology related to 1,300 km range ballistic missiles --probably the No Dong -- 300 km range anti-ship cruise missiles, and other prohibited military equipment.

More David Kay....

With regard to biological warfare activities, which has been one of our two initial areas of focus, ISG teams are uncovering significant information - including research and development of BW-applicable organisms, the involvement of Iraqi Intelligence Service (IIS) in possible BW activities, and deliberate concealment activities. All of this suggests Iraq after 1996 further compartmentalized its program and focused on maintaining smaller, covert capabilities that could be activated quickly to surge the production of BW agents.

A very large body of information has been developed through debriefings, site visits, and exploitation of captured Iraqi documents that confirms that Iraq concealed equipment and materials from UN inspectors when they returned in 2002. One noteworthy example is a collection of reference strains that ought to have been declared to the UN. Among them was a vial of live C. botulinum Okra B. from which a biological agent can be produced. This discovery - hidden in the home of a BW scientist - illustrates the point I made earlier about the difficulty of locating small stocks of material that can be used to covertly surge production of deadly weapons. The scientist who concealed the vials containing this agent has identified a large cache of agents that he was asked, but refused, to conceal. ISG is actively searching for this second cache.

Hmm... "Covertly surge production..."

Mustard Gas in months?...yep probably after the sanctions would have been lifted.

apparently I can't link the report....
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Old 10-06-2003, 05:03 PM   #32
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Without even getting into the obvious unaccounted for stocks I have mentioned before, all of the above concealments are violations of the 1991 Gulf War Ceacefire agreement and multiple UN resolutions. Member states of the UN are authorized to use all means necessary to bring about compliance.

The list of Saddam's violations will continue to grow as Kay's team finds out more.
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Old 10-08-2003, 03:22 AM   #33
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Re: read the report

Quote:
Originally posted by julles
David Kay...
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We have discovered...
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...suitable for...
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...possibly used...
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...can be used...
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...research...and continuing work on...
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...that would have been useful...
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...not fully declared... and an admission that they had tested...
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...capability...
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Plans...
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...would have...
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...attempts...
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...related...
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...probably...
More David Kay....

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...All of this suggests...
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...could be...
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A very large body of information has been developed...
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Old 10-08-2003, 08:05 PM   #34
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Pub Crawler,

Can you name any resolutions that Saddam complied with? Of the following items, 30,000 Bio/Chem shells, a thousand liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas, can you name a single item from that list that was VERIFIABLY destroyed in the presence of UN inspectors or given to UN inspectors by SADDAM?

It is a fact that Saddam violated the 1991 UN Ceacefire Agreement and 17 UN resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations.

Much of the information Kay has added above simply adds to the list of violations. Saddam was not to have ANYTHING, NOTHING, nada no programs, no plans, no precusers NOTHING.
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Old 10-09-2003, 01:57 AM   #35
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The fact that Saddam violated the 1991 Ceacefire Agreement dosn't make the accuses of the USA and GB in the UN 2003 against Iraq true.

They said they had proof of the imminent threat of Iraq. Showed us satelitepictures of WMD sites and plants, showed dossiers that Iraq can mobilize its WMDs within less than an hour, mobile weapon laboratories etc. which made it impossible for them to wait for UNMOVIC.

to quote you NOTHING, nada no programs, no plans, no projects could be found yet NOTHING.

I'm pretty sure that something exists. But the credibility of the US is much smaller than before.

Now even worse - after the war the US/GB block the UN completely, UNMOVIC isn't allowed to do their job, US only inspections will be less credible in the Arabic world, could be seen as the "justice of the winner"

You fought in the name of the UN resolutions but are unwilling to let the UN do their job.

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Old 10-09-2003, 03:21 AM   #36
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Klaus,

Iraq's WMD program and materials were established by the international community in March 1991 as an imminent threat to the international community. This is why Saddam was forced to disarm of all WMD according to the March 1991 Ceacefire Agreement.

The only way that UNMOVIC could successfully disarm Saddam was through Saddams cooperation with UNMOVIC. When UNMOVIC was let back in, in 2002 and SADDAM failed to explain what had happened to the 30,000 CHEM/BIO Shells, thousands of liters of Anthrax, and hundreds of pounds of mustard gas, UNMOVIC's Job became useless. Unarmed inspectors cannot disarm a dictator with a large military who will not cooperate.

At that point, UNMOVIC's job ceases because cooperation has broken down, and the operation because a military operation to disarm Saddam.

SADDAM HAS YET TO VERIFIABLY DISARM OF ALL WMD! Failure to do this authorizes member states of the UN to use all means necessary to bring about compliance.

"I'm pretty sure that something exists. But the credibility of the US is much smaller than before."

US and UN credibility has been saved by US actions. Would anyone in the future take UN resolutions on disarmament and resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules seriously, if the international community could not even enforce its own resolutions against SADDAM which called for it? HELL NO.

"But the credibility of the US is much smaller than before."

In the Third World, the one who actually takes action has far more credibility than the one who does not.

"Now even worse - after the war the US/GB block the UN completely, UNMOVIC isn't allowed to do their job, US only inspections will be less credible in the Arabic world, could be seen as the "justice of the winner""

UNMOVIC's job ended when Saddam decided not to cooperate and the UN moved to the military option to enforce the resolutions. The UN mission then became a military operation to disarm Iraq. If the UN wants a new Inspection regime in Iraq, it will need a new resolution for it.


"You fought in the name of the UN resolutions but are unwilling to let the UN do their job."

In case you forgot, the UN is doing its job in Iraq through through a coalition of 29 countries under resolution 1483 passed after the end of the Iraq War in May.
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Old 10-09-2003, 04:44 AM   #37
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To the un resolutions, see my other answers

UNMOVIC's job would end when the Weapons are found or it's verified what hapened with them.
US said that Saddam was removed because he didn't verifiably dissarm and didn't cooperate with unmovic.

Just because Saddam isn't anymore dosn't mean that Unmovic isn't necessary anymore. As long as it's unclear what hapened to the WMDs unmovic should do it's work in iraq, especially now where the regime who didn't cooperate with Unmovic and tried to fool them is gone.

You know exactly that not many of the 29 countries support the coaltion because they are convinced but because of monetary reasons.
Latest example the Turkey troops - you get them for one year and help turkey with tons of money. I don't think you call this "free choice". And i don't know if the taxpayer likes it that G.W.Bush has to buy his "friends"

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Old 10-09-2003, 06:38 PM   #38
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Klaus,

UNMOVIC's job was peaceful inspections carried out with the cooperation of Saddam. That process ended back in March. Military enforcement of the resolutions is what is being done now.
The UN switched from Peaceful Inspections "UNMOVIC" to a military enforcement "The Coalition".

"You know exactly that not many of the 29 countries support the coaltion because they are convinced but because of monetary reasons.
Latest example the Turkey troops - you get them for one year and help turkey with tons of money. I don't think you call this "free choice". And i don't know if the taxpayer likes it that G.W.Bush has to buy his "friends""

Countries make deals all the time and there is nothing wrong with that. Its still free choice. Turkey rejected the US offer back in March to open a Northern Front against Iraq. So the idea that its not freedom of choice because of money or other things is a false one.
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Old 10-10-2003, 12:39 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally posted by STING2
Pub Crawler,

Can you name any resolutions that Saddam complied with? Of the following items, 30,000 Bio/Chem shells, a thousand liters of Anthrax, hundreds of pounds of Mustard Gas, can you name a single item from that list that was VERIFIABLY destroyed in the presence of UN inspectors or given to UN inspectors by SADDAM?

It is a fact that Saddam violated the 1991 UN Ceacefire Agreement and 17 UN resolutions passed under Chapter VII rules of the United Nations.

Much of the information Kay has added above simply adds to the list of violations. Saddam was not to have ANYTHING, NOTHING, nada no programs, no plans, no precusers NOTHING.
Hi Sting...

Your 'resolution' argument does not carry much weight with me because you have neglected to add a human element to the equation. Rather than discuss the fact that U.S. soldiers and Iraqi civilians are dying in Iraq, you simply cite resolutions.

In my opinion, your argument is too simplistic, too black and white. The situation in Iraq involves human lives and it is more complicated than you would lead people to believe.

That's all I have to say. Take care.
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Old 10-10-2003, 01:38 AM   #40
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pub crawler,

I'd like you to know that my best friend of 19 years fought in the war and spent 8 months in Iraq. I have several other friends that served there as well.

Me, My family, and friends are all to aware of the human element in the equation. I have discussed the human losses both US and Iraqi many times here.

Speaking of the Human element in all this, how many Iraqi's would not be alive today if Saddam had still been in Power the past 6 months? What would the risk to regional and global security be considering Saddam's actions in the past. Saddam's actions had killed 1.7 million people in the past. If allowed to continue in power without being disarmed, how many more people would die, from both his brutal daily terror on the Iraqi people, and his foreign "adventures".

The USA has not removed a worse threat to man kind in general since Hitler was removed from power in 1945. Saddam's crimes may pale by comparison, but that does not change the value and benefit to humanity in having him removed, both from the security and humanitarian perspective.
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Old 10-16-2003, 06:39 AM   #41
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Quote:
Greg Thielmann, the retired State Department official who was a top analyst for Colin Powell on Iraq's W.M.D., told "60 Minutes II":

last night that Iraq had been so far from being an imminent threat that Mr. Powell's speech making that case at the U.N. was "probably one of the low points in his long, distinguished service to the nation."
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Old 10-16-2003, 09:43 AM   #42
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The weapons will never be found if they indeed exist. Hussein wont allow that. He will never oblige any resolution and prove or disprove.
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Old 10-17-2003, 03:44 AM   #43
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I dunno, Angela. I think the Bush adminstration has "found" WMD's to the extent that they need to find them. Actually, they don't need to find WMD's. All they need to find is "evidence" that Iraq has/had a WMD manufacturing capability.

David Kay produced a preliminary report that he calls an "Interim Progress Report." At the same time, Kay asked for another 8 months or so to continue his investigation (I'm assuming he has been granted the extension by the Bush administration). Kay will come up with more findings and, frankly, it won't matter what those findings are, just as long as he has findings.

By the time Kay is done investigating, much of the debate over the Bush administration's claims prior to the invasion that Iraq posed an immediate WMD-based threat will have subsided. Hell, much of the debate has already subsided.

Question: How much of Kay's report can be proved or disproved without -- at the very least -- an objective third party overseeing the investigation? The answer is, it doesn't matter. The White House has already declared that justice has been served:
-------------------------------------------------------------
October 6, 2003

Global Message




From remarks by President Bush, White House South Lawn, 10/3/03

David Kay's interim report on weapons of mass destruction findings in Iraq states that Saddam Hussein's regime had: -A clandestine network of biological laboratories -A live strain of deadly agent botulinum -Sophisticated concealment efforts -Advanced design work on prohibited, longer range missiles

Kay's report states that Iraq's WMD programs spanned more than two decades, involved thousands of people, billions of dollars, and was elaborately shielded by security and deception operations that continued even beyond the end of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

Kay's team discovered dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.

Kay also found systematic destruction of evidence of these illegal activities.

Kay's findings are part of a progress report and are not final.

Extensive work remains to be done on Saddam Hussein's biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs.

The interim report already makes clear that Saddam Hussein actively deceived the international community, was in clear violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, and that he was a danger to the world.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/relea.../20031006.html
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Case closed.

(bold emphasis mine)
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