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Old 06-25-2008, 12:11 PM   #46
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Scott's a spokesperson who was told to concentrate his responses on certain terms and avoid other aspects when responding to questions about the war. Which directly supports my argument. And of course Clarke is just a person with an axe to grind to you, because he doesn't agree with your assessment.

As to Colin Powell, yes he supports the use of military force. That does not address, however, the administration's selling of the war to the public, or its handling of the war. His chief of staff at the time of his infamous UN speech wrote a book titled "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown", and referring to Powell's speech at the UN, says "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life."

David Kay, the CIA's chief weapon's inspector in Iraq after Saddam fell, says "In fact, Secretary Powell was not told that one of the sources he was given as a source of this information had indeed been flagged by the Defense Intelligence Agency as a liar, a fabricator." (read CNN.com - Former aide:PowellWMD speech'lowest point in my life' - Aug 19, 2005 for more)

And Powell, when asked about his infamous speech to the UN, said "There were some people in the intelligence community who knew at the time that some of these sources were not good, and shouldn't be relied upon, and they didn't speak up." And asked if that speech would tarnish his reputation, "Of course it will. It's a blot. I'm the one who presented it on behalf of the United States to the world, and [it] will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It's painful now." (from ABC News: Colin Powell on Iraq, Race, and Hurricane Relief)

So while yes, he does ultimately support the war, it's not as if he's perfectly fine with the drum-up to the war as well.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:13 PM   #47
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Notice that there is a topic for this thread and its not a poster in the forum. I know how interested you are in me and talking about me, but were here to discuss topics and issues not members of the forum. If you really have a problem with me, you don't have to read my post, let alone open up a thread which I started or even respond to it. If what you say is true, why do you have hundreds of post either in response to something I have said or are some strange attempt to characterize my posts like above? Post your opinion on the topic and move on, or don't even engage in it at all. Its that simple.

when one poster consistently destroys entire threads, it affects everyone.

i am one of the few who actively engage you. a forum like this isn't so simple as posting speeches on whatever topic. it requires a level of human engagement, of back-and-forth, of acknolwedging another viewpoint and of offering something different. the manner in which one debates, as well as the techniques one uses to debate, not to mention the fact that the quality of an argument is severely undermined when all opposition is summarily dismissed in the most facile manner possible ... all these are quite open for discussion and are not in any way personal attacks.

but if you must view them as such, go right ahead.
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Old 06-25-2008, 12:20 PM   #48
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It was more than good enough for the White House, but the United States did not have the needed military forces in place in Kuwait and the region to invade Iraq until March of 2003. The central case for military action laid down in resolution 1441 is not a frabrication, its a fact! To this day its one that Colin Powell supports as well as the majority of the military.


if it was good enough for the white house, why the need for all the speeches that hyped the WMD threat? why the need for Cheney to talk about Saddam restarting his nuclear program? why was 1441 obviously not good enough for the UN?

and why do you invoke Colin Powell, a man who's career is defined/tarred by Iraq, as some sort of beacon of truth? and why would the military be in support of an action that they've been called upon to perform?

you'll dismiss Clarke and McClellan -- and the entire CIA -- but present Powell and the "majority" of the military as unimpeachable sources of truth?
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Old 06-29-2008, 07:29 PM   #49
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when one poster consistently destroys entire threads, it affects everyone.

i am one of the few who actively engage you. a forum like this isn't so simple as posting speeches on whatever topic. it requires a level of human engagement, of back-and-forth, of acknolwedging another viewpoint and of offering something different. the manner in which one debates, as well as the techniques one uses to debate, not to mention the fact that the quality of an argument is severely undermined when all opposition is summarily dismissed in the most facile manner possible ... all these are quite open for discussion and are not in any way personal attacks.

but if you must view them as such, go right ahead.
Unless your a moderator why are you engaging in a discussion that has nothing to do with the thread topic? If you really believe that there is some type of a problem, you talk to a moderator or start another thread. Discussing other peoples alleged posting habbits or them, rather than discussing the issues or the thread topic, is precisely the thing that destroys threads. This thread is becoming a perfect example.
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Old 06-29-2008, 07:52 PM   #50
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if it was good enough for the white house, why the need for all the speeches that hyped the WMD threat? why the need for Cheney to talk about Saddam restarting his nuclear program? why was 1441 obviously not good enough for the UN?

and why do you invoke Colin Powell, a man who's career is defined/tarred by Iraq, as some sort of beacon of truth? and why would the military be in support of an action that they've been called upon to perform?

you'll dismiss Clarke and McClellan -- and the entire CIA -- but present Powell and the "majority" of the military as unimpeachable sources of truth?
1441 was good enough for the UN as the results have shown. No condemnation of the invasion in 2003 or even an attempt at one, followed by years of annual approvals of the occupation. There are few military operations that the UN has given more approval to than this one.

There were attempts by the administration to get additional support beyond what they already had, and it is true that much of what they did post November 2002 was try and strengthen Tony Blair politically in Britain where he indeed was having problems. But the majority of the case was made and the resolutions from Congress and the United Nations successfully obtained during the first two months from September to November 2002.

Also, gallup polling has already shown that a majority of the public already supported an invasion to remove Saddam from power prior to 9/11 destroying this myth that the President had to "hype" intelligence in order to get the public to support the war.

The administration presented the information that it thought was important and its only in retrospect given what has so far been found in Iraq, that large numbers of people claim that the administration hyped the threat. Bush's father was accused of hyping the threat as well back in 1990-1991. In fact, there is always some corner of America that accusses whatever administration takes the United States to war of hyping the threat or the need to go to war.


Clarke speaks for himself, not the entire CIA. Same with McClellan. Powell and a number of other officials both inside and outside the administration are far more credible and experienced on the issue than either Clarke or McClellan. The majority of the military from annual polling that has been done have consistently supported both the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq as well as being the strongest source of support for President Bush in general.
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Old 06-29-2008, 08:08 PM   #51
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Scott's a spokesperson who was told to concentrate his responses on certain terms and avoid other aspects when responding to questions about the war. Which directly supports my argument. And of course Clarke is just a person with an axe to grind to you, because he doesn't agree with your assessment.

As to Colin Powell, yes he supports the use of military force. That does not address, however, the administration's selling of the war to the public, or its handling of the war. His chief of staff at the time of his infamous UN speech wrote a book titled "Dead Wrong -- Inside an Intelligence Meltdown", and referring to Powell's speech at the UN, says "I look back on it, and I still say it was the lowest point in my life."

David Kay, the CIA's chief weapon's inspector in Iraq after Saddam fell, says "In fact, Secretary Powell was not told that one of the sources he was given as a source of this information had indeed been flagged by the Defense Intelligence Agency as a liar, a fabricator." (read CNN.com - Former aide:�Powell�WMD speech�'lowest point in my life' - Aug 19, 2005 for more)

And Powell, when asked about his infamous speech to the UN, said "There were some people in the intelligence community who knew at the time that some of these sources were not good, and shouldn't be relied upon, and they didn't speak up." And asked if that speech would tarnish his reputation, "Of course it will. It's a blot. I'm the one who presented it on behalf of the United States to the world, and [it] will always be a part of my record. It was painful. It's painful now." (from ABC News: Colin Powell on Iraq, Race, and Hurricane Relief)

So while yes, he does ultimately support the war, it's not as if he's perfectly fine with the drum-up to the war as well.
Clarke and his positions did not get the level attention that he felt that it should. He is rather open about having an axe to grind.

Has the United States ever fought a war where there were no mistakes and the intelligence was always perfect? I understand that the left thinks that they can score political points by talking about this piece of intelligence or that piece of intelligence being wrong, but much of the intelligence on the same issues was discovered to be wrong in the First Gulf War, for example that Saddam was 10 years away from a nuclear weapon when in fact he was only 6 months away based on what UN inspectors found after going into Iraq in 1991.

In any event, none of the specific pieces of intelligence that are often brought up as having been incorrect would have changed the ultimate outcome of the vote in congress in October 2002 or the vote in November at the UN in 2002 which is all that was needed to go to war. Both resolutions would have been approved. Saddam's failure to comply, the breakdown of the embargo and sanctions as means of containing him, were more than enough to secure the votes needed in October 2002 and November 2002.

By the way, David Kay is another official who still ultimately supports the removal of Saddam despite the mistakes on intelligence information.
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