Eye for an Eye

[BrownEyedBoy]

I have been thinking lately, what is so wrong with this philosophy for law (Hammurabi's code)?

It seems to me like it is truly justice at its best. If you do something, you will get the exact same thing in return. Kill someone and you will be killed.

I think the reason why crimes keep happening is because the punishments aren't severe enough, especially in third world countries like mine.

Why is this not fair?

(Please no smart-ass comments about how we're in 2005 and whatnot. I want real arguments as to why Eye for an eye isn't fair.)

 

[deep]

Would you cut off a thiefs hand?

 

[deep]

I don’t know about Honduras.

If your country has the death penalty.

The United States has 295 million people and errors have been found in our legal system.

 

[unosdostres14]

"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" - Mohandas Gandhi

 

[Irvine511]

"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" - Mohandas Gandhi

how do you prove that killing is wrong by killing someone?

the point is to be better than the criminal, not sink to his level.

 

[teenage_waste]

"An eye for an eye only makes the whole world blind" - Mohandas Gandhi

lol! I was going to post that quote too. I agree. no more words needed.

 

[melon]

Here's something for the Christian folk:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect." -- Matthew 5:38-48.

Not that I expect any modern Christians to actually do this anymore.

Melon

 

[nbcrusader]

 

[BVS]

Because nothing is black and white. Many a man have been accused and sentenced for crimes they didn't commit. Some even on death row, who knows how many have actually been executed for they close the case permanatly after death. We're a fallible species with a fallible system therefore a guarantee for justice is never there.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

No offense Melon, but do you really mean to speak about "all Christians" like that? Do you honestly believe they're all just like the ones you dislike? I might dislike certain people who are defined by a religion or whatever other distinction, but I try to judge them as individuals.

I am a severely flawed and imperfect being, I do the best I can. I think that's all most Christians do. I like to think that's the case.

I don't want to argue w/ you about this, because I understand your feelings as you've expressed them in this forum and I feel for you- I truly do, for what it's worth. I hope I didn't offend you by saying that or anything else I said.

 

[melon]

No offense Melon, but do you really mean to speak about "all Christians" like that? Do you honestly believe they're all just like the ones you dislike? I might dislike certain people who are defined by a religion or whatever other distinction, but I try to judge them as individuals.

I am a severely flawed and imperfect being, I do the best I can. I think that's all most Christians do. I like to think that's the case.

I don't want to argue w/ you about this, because I understand your feelings as you've expressed them in this forum and I feel for you- I truly do, for what it's worth. I hope I didn't offend you by saying that or anything else I said.

You didn't offend at all, so no worries.

Of course, I guess I'm forced to comment on the majority of Christians that I see out there. There are always exceptions, of course, thankfully.

I'm generally quite angry how leftist Christians let the Religious Right monopolize the term "Christian," and twist it into some irrational and intolerant religion.

Melon

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

the point is to be better than the criminal, not sink to his level.

. Exactly. Ditto BVS's post, too.

Angela

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I'm generally quite angry how leftist Christians let the Religious Right monopolize the term "Christian," and twist it into some irrational and intolerant religion.

I'm angry about that too, and I do my best to speak out about/against it. I have my "leftist" Christian views that I won't apologize for. I think many Christians do . For me they're in line w/ the teachings of Jesus as I interpret them and know/feel them in my heart.

Keeping my faith and certain beliefs I hold as a Catholic certainly doesn't mean I endorse everything the church says and does, not by a long shot. Anyway that's not what this thread is about, so that's all

 

[BonosSaint]

Here's something for the Christian folk:

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I say to you, offer no resistance to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on (your) right cheek, turn the other one to him as well. If anyone wants to go to law with you over your tunic, hand him your cloak as well. Should anyone press you into service for one mile, go with him for two miles. Give to the one who asks of you, and do not turn your back on one who wants to borrow.

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same? So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect." -- Matthew 5:38-48.

Not that I expect any modern Christians to actually do this anymore.

Melon

Melon has the best point of the thread. Can anyone really call themselves a Christian and ignore this most basic teaching in Christianity?

 

[nbcrusader]

Melon has the best point of the thread. Can anyone really call themselves a Christian and ignore this most basic teaching in Christianity?

You are entering dangerous territory here. Playing arbiter or who is really a Christian is best avoided.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

how do you prove that killing is wrong by killing someone?

the point is to be better than the criminal, not sink to his level.

Yes, but does this persuade other criminals to stop from commiting crimes?

I am sure that if someone realized that they could have the same thing done on to them if discovered they'd twice about what they're going to do.

The idea that the legal system shouldn't "stoop as low as the criminal" won't stop the criminal from actually stooping that low his or herself.

 

[BonosSaint]

You are entering dangerous territory here. Playing arbiter or who is really a Christian is best avoided.

I am not playing arbiter. This is a genuine question. Do Christ's teachings get to be ignored? Do we get to pick and choose? How do Christians deal with the philosophy quoted by Melon or are they just nice words with no real practicality? Anyone can call themselves anything they want, but I am bewildered. Just want to know where everyone is coming from.

 

[BVS]

I am sure that if someone realized that they could have the same thing done on to them if discovered they'd twice about what they're going to do.

Yeah it's doing a bang up job so far.

 

[nbcrusader]

I am not playing arbiter. This is a genuine question. Do Christ's teachings get to be ignored? Do we get to pick and choose? How do Christians deal with the philosophy quoted by Melon or are they just nice words with no real practicality? Anyone can call themselves anything they want, but I am bewildered. Just want to know where everyone is coming from.

A quick survey of FYM will show a multitude of examples of "pick and choose" philosophy. Some will out-right say it. Others will be accused of it.

 

[Irvine511]

Yes, but does this persuade other criminals to stop from commiting crimes?

I am sure that if someone realized that they could have the same thing done on to them if discovered they'd twice about what they're going to do.

The idea that the legal system shouldn't "stoop as low as the criminal" won't stop the criminal from actually stooping that low his or herself.

no one commits a crime expecting to be caught, and in the US, it's a proven fact that the death penalty is not a deterrant to crime, and in fact the states that implement the death penalty have much higher murder rates than states that do not.

 

[BonosSaint]

A quick survey of FYM will show a multitude of examples of "pick and choose" philosophy. Some will out-right say it. Others will be accused of it.

Anybody willing to tackle my real question? Are the teachings of Christ in the Gospels commandments or are they just nice, comforting words without real teeth?

 

[nbcrusader]

Anybody willing to tackle my real question? Are the teachings of Christ in the Gospels commandments or are they just nice, comforting words without real teeth?

People treat them as both.

If they "have teeth" their must be consequences for failing to obey such commands.

You really have asked two separate questions here:

1. What are the basic requirements for someone to be a Christian?

2. How does our failure to follow all of God's Commands impact our life?

 

[BonosSaint]

People treat them as both.

If they "have teeth" their must be consequences for failing to obey such commands.

You really have asked two separate questions here:

1. What are the basic requirements for someone to be a Christian?

2. How does our failure to follow all of God's Commands impact our life?

While I think your questions are an interesting addition to the conversation, my question is quite simple and direct.

In the personal views of the individual Christians on this board, are the passages cited by Melon from the Gospels commandments or not?

 

[nbcrusader]

Yes, I would say they are examples of some of the many commands given to us by God.

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

Yes, but this isn't about neighbor to neighbor relationships in which you are asked to forgive and to love.

This is more of a father/son (state/person under the law) relationshipl; the kind that Proverbs asked that a Father should be strict in punishing and creating discipline in his child.

 

[BonosSaint]

But the New Testament is a new ballgame, isn't it?

 

[Irvine511]

Yes, but this isn't about neighbor to neighbor relationships in which you are asked to forgive and to love.

This is more of a father/son (state/person under the law) relationshipl; the kind that Proverbs asked that a Father should be strict in punishing and creating discipline in his child.

and this is why we have separation of church and state and why most of us do not want to live in a theocracy. so that the government doesn't create laws and punishments from the bible. i don't care what the bible thinks the relationship should be between the individual and the state; i simply want the best form of government possible, which does not come from biblical interpretation but from trial and error and respect for law and property and persons and is constantly shifting and changing and that government and law are living, breathing things that humans, and humans alone, create and fashion.

the bible is historically important, and part of western heritage, and many of our notions of right and wrong come from the bible because it provides a source of authority that's unquestionable (God) at least to it's believers (and many, many people don't believe in the bible).

 

[XHendrix24]

Yes, but this isn't about neighbor to neighbor relationships in which you are asked to forgive and to love.

This is more of a father/son (state/person under the law) relationshipl; the kind that Proverbs asked that a Father should be strict in punishing and creating discipline in his child.

So, if the son kills someone, should the father be expected to kill the son? That doesn't make sense to me.

On another note, I'm glad that the "turn the other cheek" philosophy was brought up. Even though I see where you're coming from (that this is a different kind of relationship), I think too many people forget about that passage in the bible.

 

[U2democrat]

to irvine. excellent points.

the fact is, the death penalty does NOT deter people from committing some horrendous crime.

then preaching killing is wrong, only to turn around and punish killing with killing, is extremely hypocritical.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

and this is why we have separation of church and state and why most of us do not want to live in a theocracy.

I couldn't have stated it better. I am a Christian but I would NEVER want to live in a Christian theocracy. Jesus himself never advocated any political party or stance nor took it upon himself to be involved in running the government even though it was what was expected of the Messiah. I think it sets a good precedent for the kind of role religion is meant to play in politics.