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Old 10-05-2006, 11:29 AM   #46
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Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
Umm.. I was being a pretend-Fox News reporter?
No, just a Sulzberger.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
Really, of course I am not happy that people hijacked an airplane. On the other remarks made, AEON quoted me from the other thread, saying that US is going too far by discussing limiting civil liberties by exaggerating the threat. This does mean that it is not worth curtailing your civil liberties to stop some indeterminate, phantom terrorist threat.
Can't agree with you at all, here. It's a shame that some people perpetuate 9/11 as if it were a natural disaster, and Katrina as if it were an inside job. The local, state, and federal government were slow in their response, I agree. But if we're going to rag the president on how he couldn't prevent a natural disaster, why don't we give him credit for all the natural disasters he's foiled?



And nobody is exaggerating the threat. The Jihadists have a history of blood on their hands, and we have an obligation to destroy them. They see no difference between civilians and military servants. We learned from John Walker Lindh (a gutter-trash traitor) that Al Qaida was planning two post 9/11 attacks on US soil, that would be 9/11s on steroids. If anything, we're not doing enough.

Fine, maybe you're not happy this incident happened. But it seems since the incident was out of your control, you're happy that it was a "Christian" who was charged with the hijacking.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
However, my first remark was a response to 80s saying 'this isnt important because how many christians engage in acts of terrorism anyway?'. We were talking about abortion clinics at this point. Just because there arent many of these incidents doesnt mean that we should overlook the ones that do happen.
Oh, yes. We've bombed those abortion clinics on a daily basis. Amazing that some still exist, isn't it?

Unless of course you're using a mere few incidents in order to "exaggerate the threat."

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
As you can see, the first one is about propaganda being used to get to some preconceived conclusion (everyone is out to get america), the second one is about acknowledging an event that has happened. I'd like to congratulate you though, very solid work in taking my words out of context though. I have so much more to learn to be a REAL pretend-Fox News reporter, and responses such as this take me higher on the learning curve.
Not everyone, however I am particularly worried about the partnership between Hugo Chavez and "Napolean" Ahmadinijad. Citgo (Chavez's gas station) should be boycotted by anyone who cares about their future. The Iranian Napolean has made an oath to kill Jews. Big deal, right? Unless of course they didn't think Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton did enough to sell off Israel to the Palestinians. Why didn't they give Texas back to Mexico while they were at it?

I didn't take your words "out of context." You were excited to break a story with exclamation marks and comments like "You didn't think you'd see the day, did you?" to paraphrase. Would you have done the same for a Christian Communist?
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:22 PM   #47
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Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

Quote:
Originally posted by Macfistowannabe
No, just a Sulzberger.

Can't agree with you at all, here. It's a shame that some people perpetuate 9/11 as if it were a natural disaster, and Katrina as if it were an inside job. The local, state, and federal government were slow in their response, I agree. But if we're going to rag the president on how he couldn't prevent a natural disaster, why don't we give him credit for all the natural disasters he's foiled?



And nobody is exaggerating the threat. The Jihadists have a history of blood on their hands, and we have an obligation to destroy them. They see no difference between civilians and military servants. We learned from John Walker Lindh (a gutter-trash traitor) that Al Qaida was planning two post 9/11 attacks on US soil, that would be 9/11s on steroids. If anything, we're not doing enough.

Fine, maybe you're not happy this incident happened. But it seems since the incident was out of your control, you're happy that it was a "Christian" who was charged with the hijacking.

Oh, yes. We've bombed those abortion clinics on a daily basis. Amazing that some still exist, isn't it?

Unless of course you're using a mere few incidents in order to "exaggerate the threat."

Not everyone, however I am particularly worried about the partnership between Hugo Chavez and "Napolean" Ahmadinijad. Citgo (Chavez's gas station) should be boycotted by anyone who cares about their future. The Iranian Napolean has made an oath to kill Jews. Big deal, right? Unless of course they didn't think Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton did enough to sell off Israel to the Palestinians. Why didn't they give Texas back to Mexico while they were at it?

I didn't take your words "out of context." You were excited to break a story with exclamation marks and comments like "You didn't think you'd see the day, did you?" to paraphrase. Would you have done the same for a Christian Communist?
Would have I done the same for a Christian Communist? I am sorry, but I am at a loss about how to respond to this. How is that even relevant?

I wasn't referring to your comment when I said that my words were taken out of context anyway, so it would be a stretch for you to do so.

If you must definitely know, I have nothing against Christianity. I was not happy to hear that the hijacker turned out to be who he is. He is not only a Christian, but he is also Turkish. I am not saying that Christian terrorism is the next big thing either, I am merely trying to show you that no religion, even yours, is completely good, and religious people, no matter who their god is, can do evil deeds.

Also, I am sorry but I have no idea how Chavez or Ahmedinejad or giving Texas back to Mexico is even remotely relevant to what I was talking about, either.

To sum up in one sentence, conservatives could use a dose of skepticism, and be a little more critical of their government, of their religion and of the motivation of their leaders. Self-examination is not necessarily a bad thing, you know.
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Old 10-07-2006, 11:59 AM   #48
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*skips past all the boooooooring bible quotage*

A terrorist is someone who brings terror to someones lives intentionally through violence, or murder or even just blackmail.

Do you not think the passengers aboard the flight we not TERRIFIED. How did they know the 'package' WASNT a bomb. I know when i was on a flight and two men got drunk and started fighting with each other that myself and other passengers were absolutely terrified something was going to happen and we were all going to die.

When you are 35,000 feet in the air and someone HIJACKS your plane... are you saying because he didn't have a knife or a gun or didnt kick the shit out of someone you'd be less terrified?

Honestly this guy is as bad as sept 11 hijackers....sure this flight ended a lot better then the others but the fear the passengers felt would have been the same or WORSE then sept 11, because before then, a hijacking usually didn't mean plowing into some buildings. Now with hindsight, you can bet that fear is even worse.
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Old 10-07-2006, 12:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
*skips past all the boooooooring bible quotage*

Honestly this guy is as bad as sept 11 hijackers....sure this flight ended a lot better then the others but the fear the passengers felt would have been the same or WORSE then sept 11, because before then, a hijacking usually didn't mean plowing into some buildings. Now with hindsight, you can bet that fear is even worse.
Too bad I didn't skip past your post; it's crazy to think that someone who never used violence or attempted to or even intended to murder anyone is as bad as someone who murders 3 thousand people or more.
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Old 10-07-2006, 12:42 PM   #50
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well errr, im sure the people on his plane didn't think that way.

I'm not saying he deserves to go to jail for life, but i am saying that just because he didn't whip out a bomb and kill everyone on board doesn't make what he did any less terrifying for the passengers aboard. How were they to know they would land safely? What with the way hijacking are happening now.

I'm not taking about murder. I'm talking about FEAR. The fear thos epeople on sept 11 felt on those planes would have been as much as the people on these particular one. They will have to deal with that fear and terror. Its just lucky they are still alive, because we only know AFTER the fact that he was just some weirdo that wasn't going to do anything. At the time...who knew?
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Old 10-07-2006, 01:17 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally posted by dazzlingamy
well errr, im sure the people on his plane didn't think that way.
As soon as they got off the plane, realized there were no weapons and no violence, you can bet that they drew a serious distinction between the 9/11 hijackers and this man.
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Old 10-09-2006, 02:59 PM   #52
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
Would have I done the same for a Christian Communist? I am sorry, but I am at a loss about how to respond to this. How is that even relevant?
I figured it would be baffling. But it's relevant in the fact that it is also a faith-based subculture, as is evangelical or conservative Christianity. They would rather I called them Christian Communalists, so they aren't lumped with Mao/Stalin/etc. Understandable.

I'm sure they aren't Maos or Mansons (Manson was into communal living)... just not very bright theologians.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want

If you must definitely know, I have nothing against Christianity. I was not happy to hear that the hijacker turned out to be who he is. He is not only a Christian, but he is also Turkish. I am not saying that Christian terrorism is the next big thing either, I am merely trying to show you that no religion, even yours, is completely good, and religious people, no matter who their god is, can do evil deeds.
I agree, although I do make the distinction that some strains of a religion are far more dangerous than others, and some are far more peaceful than others. Some religious strains encourage you to love your neighbor, while others encourage you to bomb your neighbor.

In any event, you don't have to look too far to find pluralists within the Islamic community:
Free Muslim Association
Free Muslim Coalition Against Terrorism

On the other hand, you don't have to look very far to find fanatics of any religion, or fanatics who want to remove religion from private life, either. The objective we all seem to forget is that we long to exist in a pluralist society. This is forgotten on any side of the aisle.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
Also, I am sorry but I have no idea how Chavez or Ahmedinejad or giving Texas back to Mexico is even remotely relevant to what I was talking about, either.
We were discussing threats, that's what urged me to comment on Chavez/Ahmadinejad. And giving back Texas is very much the equivalent to "giving back Palestine" in my opinion. It's not far-fetched to imply that Clinton and Carter took the bait when it came to people like Yassir Arafat, and somehow this established their reputation as peacemakers. Only in a world gone mad is it "peacemaking." It hasn't achieved anything to soften the blow for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I threw in the Texas comparisan because that's precisely what it would amount to if the US was pressured by militants to give land back to the previous owners.

One of Harry Truman's most defining moments - in my opinion - was when he supported Israel's right to exist. If Truman went down as one of the most admirable Democrats in modern history, then why isn't today's Democratic Party following his footsteps? Are they more illiberal than not?

But anyways, unless I've made a point, it's off-topic to you, and it's your thread, so we'll move right along.

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want
To sum up in one sentence, conservatives could use a dose of skepticism, and be a little more critical of their government, of their religion and of the motivation of their leaders. Self-examination is not necessarily a bad thing, you know.
I agree, again - I think you have a good point here, but on "civil liberties" in a time where we need to protect our homeland, I disagree with the extremes (as I see it, not to be taken personally) that it has come to. It's better to overestimate a threat than to underestimate it.

It seems as though many social anarchists view fear as a bad thing in absolution. There are good things that come out of fear, such as taking necessary precautions in order to protect those you have vowed to defend.

The Patriot Act...
The NSA Wiretapping Program...
Increased Airport Security...

Just how are these policies a threat to law-abiding citizens?
Whose lives have they ruined?
And what are the alternatives?
Are the alternatives just as effective?

I would suggest that without them, it would be a threat to our survival. They are a threat to those who have something to hide, yes, and if that's the case, they have committed treason. Civil liberties would truly be threatened if we reinstated Woodrow Wilson's Sedition Act on private citizens. While I question the degree of loyalty on American soil, there has to be room for patriotic dissent. And there is. It's okay to suggest that we have been involved in an unjust war. I don't see it that way, and debating the pros and cons should allow us to challenge our logic and search for evidence that further serves our causes. But to suggest that we're doing "too much" to defend ourselves on our homeland is a little far-off when we have been awakened by a long-ignored force of violence. We should realize that we had to make reforms on homeland security as step #1 in protecting us from more wild acts of terrorism.

I would say that over this last year, I've been a little more rebellious on the party line in terms of social policy, and more willing to find common ground to compromise on emotional issues, but still holding on to the principles I believe in. It's really based on what can benefit society as a whole, rather than the individual, without forcing either to accept an iron fist. In other words, social pluralism - favoring rights for religion and secularism without selling out your conservative or liberal principles.

But foreign policy is a different story. I refuse to compromise on our safety in order to appease social anarchists who have no historical basis to support their stances on homeland security, which I find dangerous at best.

So yes, I agree that self-examination is GOOD for democracy. So is constructive cross-examination. While I claim no expertise on European politics, I did stumble across a quote that I found rather meaningful by George Osborne in a speech he made.

"Let me do something politicians do all too rarely. Let me acknowledge some of the achievements of my opponent. I think making the Bank of England independent was an idea whose time had come. I think sticking to the tough spending plans inherited from Ken Clarke was the right thing to do. I believe Gordon Brown's efforts with Tony Blair to help Africa's poor are genuine and they have our total support. Part of our new approach to politics is never being embarrassed to say when you think your opponent is right; and it means you earn the right to be heard when you say where they have gone wrong."

George Osborne
Shadow Chancellor
English Conservative Party.

I'm going to say something that will make a jaw hit the ground. I think it was good for Hillary to give President Bush a little credit for pushing to rebuild New York City after 9/11. It gives her the right to her criticisms, although I am skeptical of many of them. We saw the same moral courage from those on the left who applauded President Bush for advocating an eco-friendly policy - although it didn't really contradict conservatism in general.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:00 PM   #53
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Question: When you originally called this guy a terrorist, did you know any of this, or did you learn it after you called him a terrorist?

The article you original posted said nothing about threats; all it said was that he may have shown the pilot a "Package", but it wasn't sure.

At that time, based on that information, you called the guy a "terrorist", which lumped him in a group with people who chop off heads.

What we know now has nothing to do with what you said at that time.
I did know that the guy had threatened to blow up the plane, because I had discussed it with my friends and they'd seen it on TV. but this article came out the day after i made the post. anyway, how else would he be able to hi-jack a plane without making any threats? also, if you are going to take beheaders as your benchmark of terrorism, then i am afraid that you will be leaving out quite a bit outside of the definition, which isn't such a good idea.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:23 PM   #54
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want


I did know that the guy had threatened to blow up the plane, because I had discussed it with my friends and they'd seen it on TV. but this article came out the day after i made the post. anyway, how else would he be able to hi-jack a plane without making any threats?

I really don't know, but the original article didn't sya anything about threats.
Quote:
Originally posted by all_i_want


also, if you are going to take beheaders as your benchmark of terrorism, then i am afraid that you will be leaving out quite a bit outside of the definition, which isn't such a good idea.
I use beheaders as the benchmark because in this climate, when people talk about terrorists, they're talking about people who behead and commit other vile acts of murder.
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Old 10-09-2006, 07:40 PM   #55
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest






I use beheaders as the benchmark because in this climate, when people talk about terrorists, they're talking about people who behead and commit other vile acts of murder.
if you were a woman, had a wife or sisters

you might understand there are worse things than beheading

Quote:
An Iraqi army medic told the hearing on Sunday he entered the house and found the body of 14-year-old Abeer Qasim Hamza al-Janabi naked and burned from the waist up, with a single bullet wound beneath her left eye.

Special Agent Gary Griesmyer recounted Cortez' account of the day. "While they were playing cards and drinking Iraqi whiskey, the idea came to go out to an Iraqi house, rape a woman and murder her family," he testified.

Cortez said Barker told the young girl to "shut up" after she was raped, Griesmyer said.

Bierce said Barker told him he poured kerosene from a lamp on to the girl. It was not clear who set her on fire.

Barker later signed a sworn statement based on the interview, in which he said that on the day of the attack he, Cortez, Spielman and Green had been playing cards and drinking whisky mixed with an energy drink. They then went to the rear of the checkpoint where they were based to hit golf balls.

Green said he wanted to go to a house and kill some Iraqis, Barker wrote in his sworn statement.

After the rape and murders, he wrote that he began to grill chicken wings.
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Old 10-09-2006, 08:57 PM   #56
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

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Originally posted by deep


if you were a woman, had a wife or sisters

you might understand there are worse things than beheading

I have two sisters, and I do understand that there are worse things than being beheaded.

Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I see no point to your post. The article you posted has nothing to do with this man who hijacked the plane.
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Old 10-09-2006, 10:10 PM   #57
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest



I really don't know, but the original article didn't sya anything about threats.


I use beheaders as the benchmark because in this climate, when people talk about terrorists, they're talking about people who behead and commit other vile acts of murder.

Ooh, la la. Beheaders as the benchmark? It's part of the law in Saudi Arabia and isn't considered a vile act of murder there. Of course they are under Wahhabist rule, something no sensible person would choose to be born into. Even if you're a princess and have access to your own private plane.
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Old 10-09-2006, 11:21 PM   #58
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: extremist christian terrorist hijacks plane!!

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Originally posted by verte76



Ooh, la la. Beheaders as the benchmark? It's part of the law in Saudi Arabia and isn't considered a vile act of murder there. Of course they are under Wahhabist rule, something no sensible person would choose to be born into. Even if you're a princess and have access to your own private plane.
oooh la la? What do you mean by that?

Chopping off reporter's heads isn't against the law in Saudi Arabia? Wow.
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