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Old 04-28-2008, 01:41 PM   #121
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If you're talking about the way Expelled presents the subject, then yes. Including the entire quote is anything but sophistry.
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Old 04-28-2008, 02:53 PM   #122
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Diemen-

Did you see the movie?

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Old 04-28-2008, 04:34 PM   #123
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Did the movie include the whole quote that I showed?
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Old 04-28-2008, 04:55 PM   #124
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No, it did not.

Of course it was edited and presented in a way to support Stein's views. That is why I said the first 2/3s of the movie was more effective.

One might actually think some of the arguments are reasonable.

But, when he spun the Nazi stuff out, his creditability started to slide.
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Old 04-28-2008, 05:01 PM   #125
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Saying that Darwin's theory of evolution was a "necessary but not sufficient condition" for the Holocaust is like saying that the doctrine of salvation was a "necessary but not sufficient condition" for the Spanish Conquest and resulting slave trade in first Native Americans, then Africans. Well, kind of...in the sense that the event in question wouldn't have unfolded precisely the way it did, wouldn't have looked exactly the way it did, had a particular understanding of the theory/doctrine in question--an understanding itself distinctly shaped by unrelated ideas and events peculiar to that time and place--not been bound up in the ideology of the perpetrators. But to suggest that said theory/doctrine inevitably leads to such outcomes is ridiculous, and even pointedly fingering it as a "necessary but not sufficient condition" in the context of polemicizing against its proponents (while just as pointedly neglecting to examine other "necessary but not sufficient conditions") ought to immediately raise a red flag. It's tempting to think that if only we all subscribed to the 'right' worldview, we could transcend our capacity for mass brutality once and for all, but unfortunately human history shows otherwise.
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Old 04-28-2008, 09:44 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diemen
Did the movie include the whole quote that I showed?
I will take that as no.

Come to the table when you're knowledgeable enough about this film.

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Old 04-28-2008, 09:46 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep
No, it did not.

Of course it was edited and presented in a way to support Stein's views. That is why I said the first 2/3s of the movie was more effective.

One might actually think some of the arguments are reasonable.

But, when he spun the Nazi stuff out, his creditability started to slide.
I disagree completely, that's when it made some viewers connect the dots and other viewers squirm.

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Old 04-28-2008, 10:23 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Come to the table when you're knowledgeable enough about this film.
This assertion...:
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Hilter took glee in riding the planet of the Jews and those he felt were inferior, a view proffered also by Darwin.
...was about Darwin, not about the movie. If you know it's true that Darwin "proffered" that view, then you should be able to make a case for that in your own words, rather than saying "just see the movie."
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Old 04-28-2008, 11:43 PM   #129
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Is it rocket science or within a short intellectual reach to be able draw conclusions with mantras such as:
"Survival of the Fitess" to "Eterminate an inferior race"

paticularily when members of the Nazi Party proclaimed themselves as Darwinists and that some Nazis took or interpreted Darwinian Principles to justify their evil?

That said, have you viewed this film Yolland?

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Old 04-28-2008, 11:59 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Is it rocket science or within a short intellectual reach to be able draw conclusions with mantras such as:
"Survival of the Fitess" to "Eterminate an inferior race"

paticularily when members of the Nazi Party proclaimed themselves as Darwinists and that some Nazis took or interpreted Darwinian Principles to justify their evil?

That said, have you viewed this film Yolland?

<>
Did you even read my initial response? Did you actual read the entire quote from Darwin, and not just the one shown in the film?

If so, I would think any rational being would realize that Darwin was not arguing for elimination of inferior humans. Let me again repeat Darwin's assertion:

Quote:
“The aid which we feel impelled to give to the helpless is mainly an incidental result of the instinct of sympathy, which was originally acquired as part of the social instincts, but subsequently rendered, in the manner previously indicated, more tender and more widely diffused. Nor could we check our sympathy, if so urged by hard reason, without deterioration in the noblest part of our nature.
So diamond, would you actually care to respond to the facts here or will you continue to dodge them and make your own broad assertions based on what a film has told you to think rather than what you have come to learn from the unbiased facts?
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Old 04-29-2008, 12:21 AM   #131
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I will engage in dialogue with you only after you see the movie, instead answering to a parsley spattering of randomly clipped quotes here and there.

We could also love chat aout "War and Peace" after you read the book -if you like.

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Old 04-29-2008, 12:53 AM   #132
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Nice dodge, diamond - exactly what I expected. However, the movie is not necessary at this point to discuss the claim that Darwin was pro-eugenics. But since you know you have no ground to stand on here, you cling to the movie.

But in the (incredibly rare) chance that you actually would be interested in oh, I don't know, actually discussing a topic using logic and not talking points, ignore the movie for second. Reading the quote of Darwin's, how could you logically come to the conclusion that he is arguing for eugenics when he explicity says that to go down that road would be at the expense of the "noblest part of our nature"?
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:04 AM   #133
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Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Is it rocket science or within a short intellectual reach to be able draw conclusions with mantras such as:
"Survival of the Fitess" to "Eterminate an inferior race"

paticularily when members of the Nazi Party proclaimed themselves as Darwinists and that some Nazis took or interpreted Darwinian Principles to justify their evil?

That said, have you viewed this film Yolland?

<>
And being as knowledgeable as you are you would know that it wasn't Darwin who coined the phrase survival of the fittest and natural selection is not about exterminating other races or species.
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:07 AM   #134
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Nevermind the number of people who have used the Bible to justify ugly and evil deeds.
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Old 04-29-2008, 01:10 AM   #135
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Well that is justified, because in places the bible is so very explicit about when genocide is morally alright.

Darwinian Natural Selection does not say that it is morally right for one thing or another thing to happen, only why it happens.
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