Excommunication for Kerry, Kennedy, Cuomo, Harkin because of abortion stance.

[Dreadsox]

[Q]OSTON, Oct. 18 - A canon lawyer seeking to have Senator John Kerry excommunicated by the Roman Catholic Church because of his support for abortion rights said on Monday that he had ammunition in the form of a letter issued at the request of a senior Vatican official.

The lawyer, Marc Balestrieri of Los Angeles, who heads a conservative Catholic nonprofit organization called De Fide, also said that, based on the letter, he would now seek to have four other Catholic politicians excommunicated: Senators Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, Tom Harkin of Iowa, Susan Collins of Maine, and Mario M. Cuomo, the former governor of New York.

"Senator Kerry, and all pro-choice Catholic politicians, who publicly call themselves Catholic yet who blatantly violate canon law by continuing to profess heresy and receive Holy Communion, must publicly reject their abortion advocacy for the sake of their own souls, and the others they have scandalized," Mr. Balestrieri said in a statement. "They have been excommunicated."

Only Ms. Collins is not a Democrat.

The letter to Mr. Balestrieri, written by another American canon lawyer at the request of a Vatican official, says that "if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy" and is "automatically excommunicated."
[/Q]http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/19/politics/campaign/19catholic.html?ei=5006&en=b622b6e310a31251&ex=1098849600&adxnnl=1&partner=ALTAVISTA1&adxnnlx=1098191168-rikNpRJ/mVca520364Dutw&pagewanted=print&position=

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

This really makes me squirm and makes me angry, but I'm still proud to be a Catholic, and the "church" certainly doesn't tell me what to think or how to vote

If that makes me a "bad Catholic", then so be it

 

[nbcrusader]

Intradenominational judicial proceedings are not unusual. But going after individual congregants??? What would be left of the Catholic Church is all members who supported abortion were kicked out? Can you say schism?

 

[BVS]

I'm guessing the Catholic church doesn't have mirrors, because they obviously haven't taken a good look at themselves recently.

 

[LoveTown]

can't blame all catholics cuz of this one guy...

 

[U2Kitten]

You have to understand, to some people abortion is so evil, so vile, pure murder, and that anyone who supports it and perpetuates its availability with their votes is just as bad as a murderer to them. Even if they are personally opposed but allow others to have the 'right' they are still allowing it and approving of it and the blood is on their hands too. While it is wrong to single out certain people and not others (though I'm sure the public eye has a lot to do with that) they are going by what they feel is right. There are rules, and if you break them, you are not a good Catholic by their standards and maybe should choose another religion. You can't change the rules to suit what you want to believe so you won't have to feel guilty. If that were the case what good is religion at all? BTW I'm not a Catholic that's just how it looks to me.

 

[DaveC]

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!

 

[sharky]

You shouldn't choose another religion because you disagree with the Church's stance on abortion. I am a Catholic and I would never change that even though I am pro-choice. This guy is wrong. The Catholic Church was shamed by the child sex abuse charges brought against it. This guy should be going after those who wear the collar and sin so badly that it hurts the reputation of the church, not a few politicians that may disagree with doctrine.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

This guy should be going after those who wear the collar and sin so badly that it hurts the reputation of the church, not a few politicians that may disagree with doctrine.

Yes indeed, but they think all of this will divert attention from that I suppose

Doesn't work

 

[nbcrusader]

You shouldn't choose another religion because you disagree with the Church's stance on abortion. I am a Catholic and I would never change that even though I am pro-choice. This guy is wrong. The Catholic Church was shamed by the child sex abuse charges brought against it. This guy should be going after those who wear the collar and sin so badly that it hurts the reputation of the church, not a few politicians that may disagree with doctrine.

You raise an interesting topic (perhaps for another thread):

Who defines our faith?

The Bible?
A Church?
An individual?
Ourselves?


And then we can look at doctrinal issues.....

 

[verte76]

If I recall my catechism correctly, and it's only been a matter of months since I went to my last class (I took a refresher last year) the Catholic Faith is determined by the Pope and the Councils, and based on Sacred Tradition. We differ from the Protestants in that we don't have a concept of "the priesthood of all believers" and in having seven sacraments. Scripture is only part of sacred tradition, therefore some of our beliefs strike Protestants as "unbiblical" or "unscriptural", like the beliefs about Marian devotion and Purgary. Actually the belief about praying for the dead comes from a book accepted as canonical by Catholics but not Protestants, II Maccabees. We use the Alexandrian Canon for the Hebrew Scriptures and the Protestants use the Jerusalem Canon. Recently Cardinal Ratzinger, Pope John Paul's "right hand man" and a noted conservative, issued a statement saying that Catholic voters could decide for themselves on what they think of Politician X's contribution to a "culture of life". If we decide, say, that Kerry is better on this because of his position on health care issues, which I have, this is fair game. There was a stink when a bishop in Colorado issued a statement that Catholics who supported "pro-abortion" candidates couldn't get Communion. This statement was blasted by Pax Christi Illinois and publically disavowed by the Cardinal of Washington D.C, Cardinal McCurran. There was recently a controversy when they made some political statements on EWTN, a very conservative Catholic TV station. They don't represent the whole Church, the Pope, or anything but the conservative wing of the Catholic Church, which doesn't include me.

 

[hiphop]

I´d like to know who that senior Vatican official is.

I doubt the Church is going to excommunicate Kerry personally. The statement is "if a Catholic publicly and obstinately supports the civil right to abortion, knowing that the church teaches officially against that legislation, he or she commits that heresy" and is "automatically excommunicated."

From what I hear (and I only got that part of the text) it is an overall wishy washy statement, not mentioning John Kerry, and using terms like "automatically excommunicated"

Seems rather a media game by Balestirieri or/ and the Vatican, in the upcoming of the elections, than a real excommunication.

 

[ImOuttaControl]

How can Catholics be proud of their church or even want to be part of their church if they don't agree with Catholic views? Why not find a different church which suits your views? Cherry picking of church beliefs one will follow makes it all a little pointless doesn't it?

 

[starsgoblue]

You raise an interesting topic (perhaps for another thread):

Who defines our faith?

The Bible?
A Church?
An individual?
Ourselves?


And then we can look at doctrinal issues.....

Not to mean any disrespect to any Catholics on here. I am a Christian but I have an enormous sense of uncomfortableness with the idea that I somehow need a buffer between God in the form of The Pope or a confessor.

In OT times, there was a need for such a buffer to seperate the profane from the Holy, as God's presence would dwell in the Holiest of Holies....the separation in the temple courts were for our protection rather than anything else. But if one studies the book of Hebrews you can clearly see that Jesus eliminated that need and became the High Priest himself. No buffer needed to commune with God.

I don't nessacarily see any goodness coming from excommunication...that's like throwing someone out to the wolves. People were meant to have relationship with each other for the sake of relationship, not to "reach" God. Spiritual community is important for that reason.

I guess I'm kinda making two points. But I hope my intention is clear....

My .02

 

[BVS]

How can Catholics be proud of their church or even want to be part of their church if they don't agree with Catholic views? Why not find a different church which suits your views? Cherry picking of church beliefs one will follow makes it all a little pointless doesn't it?

I don't think there is a church yet that I believe 100% in every little aspect. And as far as the abortion issue goes one can vote pro-choice and still hold the values of their church, I'm sorry that the church can't see that. I'm sorry that they don't have enough knowledge of the political system to see that he may be saving lives. If you ban abortion with in the current system you're sending women out to back alley abortion clinics and you're not allowing those that need one due to their own health to get one. It's not black and white like many would like you to think.

I'm glad some of you out there have found a religion or a system that you believe 100% on all issues. I, like many others, have not.

 

[starsgoblue]

I'm wary of religion per se....man can do some wierd things in the name of religion.

God/Jesus on the other hand I trust and believe in. Only He can know peoples hearts and where their actions spring from--and he judges fairly.

 

[hiphop]

How can Catholics be proud of their church or even want to be part of their church if they don't agree with Catholic views? Why not find a different church which suits your views? Cherry picking of church beliefs one will follow makes it all a little pointless doesn't it?

Good question. I am not proud at all of the Catholic church, yet I am Catholic. There are many events in history that make it a shame to be Catholic, on the other side, there are great things the Catholic Church does, and that makes me proud of being Catholic.

Look at the help projects of the Catholic Church! www.caritas.org
I don´t know any other example of a Chrisitan help organization on that level (enlighten me if you know some).

"Caritas Internationalis is a confederation of 162 Catholic relief, development and social service organisations working to build a better world, especially for the poor and oppressed, in over 200 countries and territories. Caritas works without regard to creed, race, gender, or ethnicity, and is one of the world’s largest humanitarian networks."

That´s not picking the raisins out. How could a religion with a billion of people, spread in all the world, be homogenic? Sure there are lots of things I am against. And believe me, more than once I thought of leaving the church.

But I didn´t. And you know why? Because I was talking to an African some years ago.

I tell him: You have all those great religions, you worship your ancestors, and you are much closer to nature than we, people from the Western hemisphere, can ever get. I really appreciate that a lot.

He asks me: And what about your religion?

I say: Well, you know,... the Catholic Church has made so many mistakes, it is really a shame, so our religions are different. I can understand if you appreciate yours, but I don´t really appreciate mine, there are too many critical points I have to make.

And you know what this guy from Africa tells me? He says: No, you are on the wrong track. You were born into that religion. It is your parents who passed this religion on to you. Therefore, these are your ROOTS. In Africa, we admire our roots. Where we are coming from, what our ancestors believed in, is part of our belief system. You better be proud of your roots, because if you don´t have them, you are homeless.

What can I say? He is right. I have learned a lot from that short conversation.

It´s not pointless at all to be a Catholic, and at the same time to have very social and "liberal" ideas. There are many directions you can follow within the Catholic Church.

 

[starsgoblue]

Being in a church of any kind is always going to bring some heartache...simply because a church has imperfect people in it.

I always say to people when they are going to join the church I'm at, "This is what to do WHEN not IF someone offends or upsets you...it's going to happen".

We all have a common vision and endpoint we're striving towards, we just gotta remember to help pick the others us when they trip up.

 

[verte76]

How can Catholics be proud of their church or even want to be part of their church if they don't agree with Catholic views? Why not find a different church which suits your views? Cherry picking of church beliefs one will follow makes it all a little pointless doesn't it?

I'll speak for myself, as a proud Catholic Christian. Please keep in mind that I'm speaking strictly for myself and do not represent the Church officially. I'm just Joe Schmuck Catholic. Yes, "cherry-picking" of Church views makes it meaningless. "Catholic" isn't just a word. You're either Catholic or you're not. God is not into money and power. We're all equal before God. I don't care who it is, we are held to the same moral responsibilities. This is true if you're the Pope, the president of the United States, a U.S. Senator, or a library worker like me. However, we're not voting for the President of the Catholic States. We are voting for the President of the United States, and the Democratic Candidate is from the Catholic tradition and claims membership in it. He's what we call a "cradle Catholic". Is he a practicing Catholic? Yes, in that he attends Mass, takes the Eucharist, and presumably takes other sacraments as well. We are required to do penance at least once a year, for example, but many Catholics do not do this. It's sort of a scandal how many Catholics don't do this and it's a Church law. No, in that he's a "cherry-picker" as far as following Catholic beliefs. It could be argued that I am also because I'm supporting his candidacy. I don't accept this argument. Why not? Because I've done what Cardinal Ratzinger said we could do, look at the composite as opposed to just one issue and decided whose platform is more consistent with a "culture of life". I pick Kerry because of his positions on health care, a crucial issue in any decision on a "culture of life". It's something honest, reasonable and decent Catholics disagree on. The past several times at Mass I have held hands during the recitation of "Our Father" with people wearing Bush campaign stickers. The only thing any priest has said to me about voting is that I need to pray about my choice, and I need to be moderate and not go to extremes. I'm doing my damnedest to do both. It isn't easy. So many people are downright manic about this election, including many public figures from both parties. I hope this answers, at least in part, your question. If not fire away.

 

[anitram]

starsgoblue, you underestimate what Catholicism means to people. In many parts of the world, Catholicism and the particular culture are so closely tied together that you can no longer separate them. Religious holidays are national holidays, sometimes not even for religious reasons anymore, but traditional. The ties with the Vatican are historically important and therefore, when you talk to a Catholic, you have to understand that for most of them, their religion is part of their culture, much like Judaism is part of a Jewish person's culture, etc.

That said, I think the current Church leadership has flipped out of their gourd on a number of occasions. Particularly, this Pope seems to have a special contempt for women, and for years and years there was an internal struggle and divide between him and Mother Teresa because the Vatican did not believe it was conducive to Catholicism to have a woman be more "popular" with the people than the Pope himself. I am not so much bothered by their views on abortion, because I can see their basis even if I disagree. However, the Church's views on abstinence and continuous forbidding of ANY birth control (for married couples too!) is 100% IRRESPONSIBLE given that the vast majority of Catholics are dirt poor people in the third world who do not have the means to support their birth rate.

 

[verte76]

That's right anitram. Even for a convert like me who grew up in a heavy-duty Protestant culture (can you say "Bible Belt fundamentalism"?), there is a strong cultural aspect to being Catholic. It's not just a religion. It's an environment. I am sitting here surrounded by books about Marian devotion, the Pope, books of saints, rosaries, a crucifix, and wondering how in the hell I ever lived without this stuff. My faith is my life.