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Old 12-07-2007, 02:51 PM   #106
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[q]Romney Spokesman Won't Say If Atheists Have Place In America
By Eric Kleefeld - December 7, 2007, 9:48AM

A spokesman for the Mitt Romney campaign is thus far refusing to say whether Romney sees any positive role in America for atheists and other non-believers, after Election Central inquired about the topic yesterday

It's a sign that Romney may be seeking to submerge evangelical distaste for Mormonism by uniting the two groups together in a wider culture war. Romney's speech has come under some criticism, even from conservatives like David Brooks and Ramesh Ponnuru, for positively mentioning many prominent religions but failing to include anything positive about atheists and agnostics.

Indeed, the only mentions of non-believers were very much negative. "It is as if they're intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They're wrong," Romney said, being met by applause from the audience.

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/1...in_america.php

[/q]
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:02 PM   #107
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


OK, I'm a Catholic who goes to church every Sunday. And I completely agree with what Irvine says. So, it's not a "disregard for people of faith."
Equating Romney's comments about our common humanity regardless of our religious differences with "the streets will run red with the blood of the infidels" is about as ignorant a comment you can make.

Quote:

I agree with what Melon said: Romney's tone was "I hate the same people you do, so it's OK to vote for me!"
Really? How so?
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:06 PM   #108
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Originally posted by nathan1977

Really? How so?
I hate Europeans.
I hate those liberals who don't think this is a Christian nation therefore they are stealing you nativity scenes from our courthouse yards.
I hate atheists, those bastards are telling our children they came from monkeys.

ETC, ETC...
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:11 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Equating Romney's comments about our common humanity regardless of our religious differences with "the streets will run red with the blood of the infidels" is about as ignorant a comment you can make.


the caliphate = Kingdom Here on Earth

unless, of course, you think that there's something particular to Islam that makes it more prone to violence. after all, historically, Christians have made many streets run red with blood in the name of Christ.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:11 PM   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


I hate Europeans.
I hate those liberals who don't think this is a Christian nation therefore they are stealing you nativity scenes from our courthouse yards.
I hate atheists, those bastards are telling our children they came from monkeys.

ETC, ETC...
Huh. You know, I just went and checked the transcript of his speech, and I don't see where he said any of that.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:14 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Huh. You know, I just went and checked the transcript of his speech, and I don't see where he said any of that.

Romney clearly positioned himself against "the secularists." he identified a common enemy with the white evangelical protestants, and thusly attempted to forge a union of distrust, if not hate, that will gloss over their rather large theological differences.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:14 PM   #112
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Really? You don't think these are all concerns of this paticular audience? Please.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:16 PM   #113
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Originally posted by Irvine511




the caliphate = Kingdom Here on Earth

unless, of course, you think that there's something particular to Islam that makes it more prone to violence.
One can judge a movement by its interpretation by its earliest followers.

In the first hundred years after Christ, Christianity spread throughout the Roman empire through word-of-mouth. When persecuted, Christians willingly became martyrs.

In the first hundred years after Mohammed, Islam spread throughout the East by the sword. People were either converted or murdered. (Including many Christians.)

You tell me.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:17 PM   #114
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


You tell me.


you just answered my question.

and this is why we have secularism, and this is why you can sit so comfortably with your understanding of your own exceptionalism.

you have the secularists to thank for your own deeply felt religiosity.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:18 PM   #115
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Originally posted by Irvine511


he identified a common enemy with the white evangelical protestants, and thusly attempted to forge a union of distrust, if not hate, that will gloss over their rather large theological differences.
Gosh, I went and read his speech, and there was a surprising lack of hate in his words. Where do you see hate?

And encroaching secularism is more than just a concern to white evangelical protestants.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:23 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Gosh, I went and read his speech, and there was a surprising lack of hate in his words. Where do you see hate?

And encroaching secularism is more than just a concern to white evangelical protestants.


i see the hate in the exclusion of the agnostics and the atheists and the only mildly religious -- in fact, anyone who views religion as anything less than something to center one's whole identity around. and there was the clear identification of a common enemy. something to say that you're both against, since if Romney pointed out commonalities, the WEP's would be quick to point out the differences that seem to be so earthshakingly important to them.

there is no encroaching secularism. there's only maintenance. secularism does not encroach, it merely maintains boundaries against the wildly self-absorbed "War on Christmas" folk.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:24 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


One can judge a movement by its interpretation by its earliest followers.

In the first hundred years after Christ, Christianity spread throughout the Roman empire through word-of-mouth. When persecuted, Christians willingly became martyrs.

In the first hundred years after Mohammed, Islam spread throughout the East by the sword. People were either converted or murdered. (Including many Christians.)

You tell me.
You just proved every point I've been trying to make. You ignore your religions own past. And you really don't believe that this speech was about all religions, you judge the other religion, they aren't equal in your eyes.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:26 PM   #118
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his speech wasn't about other religions.

it was about Christianity, with a shout out to God's "special people" who just need to be "perfected," the Jews. and the Jews are super-important to the WEPs, 'cause they've got to build the temple and all.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:29 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
One can judge a movement by its interpretation by its earliest followers.

In the first hundred years after Christ, Christianity spread throughout the Roman empire through word-of-mouth. When persecuted, Christians willingly became martyrs.

In the first hundred years after Mohammed, Islam spread throughout the East by the sword. People were either converted or murdered. (Including many Christians.)
The only trouble with this logic is the fact that we're dealing with a religion that started as a minority that later became hegemonic, versus a religion that started a hegemony, more or less.

Once Christianity achieved hegemony, however, it was most certainly prone to intolerance and murder. The Christianization of the Germanic tribes, in particular, was noted as quite bloody, such as Charlemagne's massacre of Saxons that refused to convert to Christianity. In fact, Jews were, more often than not in the Middle Ages, happier to live in the Muslim empires than in Christian Europe.
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Old 12-07-2007, 03:30 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


You just proved every point I've been trying to make. You ignore your religions own past.
I said nothing about my own religion's past. What's there to say? Christianity's own sordid past is out there for all to see. I merely made the point (which neither you nor Irvine have yet to refute, by the way) that the earliest followers of a religion are the best judges of that religion's principles, and the earliest followers of Jesus and the earliest followers of Mohammed are two radically different groups of people. I'm not surprised Irvine doesn't think that's legitimate, since in the past he's tried to make the point that religions are all basically making the same point (a point which has been refuted by myself and others). But am I wrong?
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