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Old 12-07-2007, 01:25 PM   #91
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Originally posted by nathan1977
If he wanted to, he could have referenced JC till Kingdom come, since statistically his biggest audience is Christians. If he had, your point would have been proven. I'm surprised (and pleased) that he didn't. His restraint seems to address exactly what you're talking about -- the need to recognize that we live in a pluralistic society where many different faiths are celebrated. And he specifically did reference menorah candles etc in the public square, so these cries seem to fall on deaf ears.

Here's a question -- is pluralism the same thing as secularism? [/B]
But if he referenced JC any chance of Jewish voters or non-believers would be out the door. So he played it smart. He said all religions but spoke in CC code. The Europe bashing the taking our nativity scenes these are all whinigs of the CCs.

Is pluralism the same as secularism? No but a truly pluralistic society would treat all religions equal and not treat them based on percentages. You honestly think those people who get pissed off at 'Happy Holidays' or 'Season's Greetings' want to live in a truly pluralistic society? Hell no. They want theirs and that's it.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:30 PM   #92
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But if he referenced JC any chance of Jewish voters or non-believers would be out the door. So he played it smart. He said all religions but spoke in CC code. The Europe bashing the taking our nativity scenes these are all whinigs of the CCs.
Damned if you do mention religion, damned if you don't, right? And since I spend time in Europe every year, I think he described it quite accurately. Churches are empty. Christianity is on the wane. Islam is on the rise. It is what it is, but there are a large number of people here who don't want that. Are you going to tell them they can't?

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Is pluralism the same as secularism? No but a truly pluralistic society would treat all religions equal and not treat them based on percentages.
Welcome to the curse of representative government.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:39 PM   #93
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Originally posted by nathan1977
Churches are empty. Christianity is on the wane. Islam is on the rise. It is what it is, but there are a large number of people here who don't want that. Are you going to tell them they can't?
So is this more of an issue of nativism than anything else? After all, the "rise of Islam" in Europe is attributable to immigration, rather than "white Europe" converting to Islam.

For those looking to "keep things the same," it is always a losing battle. The nativist American "Know Nothing" Party in the 1850s tried to keep "everything the same" through virulently anti-Catholic, anti-immigrant polemics, failed miserably, and is a historical laughingstock today. Yet, nowadays, we look at all those descendants of Irish, Italian, German, and Eastern European immigrants today as "American" as anyone else. The same, rest assured, will happen for future generations of Americans.

Change is a constant, not a variable.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:39 PM   #94
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Actually, Turkey is staunchly "secularist," due to the nationalist ideology of Ataturk, while having noted problems with both religious freedom (putting on lots of restrictions on the Greek Orthodox Church, and closing their seminaries, due to bans on private schools) and tolerance of ethnic minorities (fining Turkish Kurds for using the banned letter "z," which doesn't exist in Turkish, but does in Kurdish).


Turkey has its struggles, due to its geographical as well as political situation. However, it's a far better (and probably more realistic) goal than Saudi Arabia (or Iraq, for that matter) becoming a "democracy."

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I don't support this extreme, which very obviously does not exist in the United States. That's why I tend to equate conservative Christian complaints about being "discriminated" in America to be the equivalent of "crying wolf," because they do not suffer from any legal discrimination at all.


Those who grow more affected every year by being refused the free practice of religion would probably disagree with you. It's not just a Christian thing, either. In college I campaigned on behalf of Jewish and Muslim students to have prayer rooms and gathering places on campus, and the strongest opponents weren't Christians -- it was people who wanted to take away the chapel too.

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This is why I state that much of this is much ado about nothing, except for those who want Christianity to take a higher place in American society tantamount to theocracy. And, as a matter of principle and pragmatism, I believe that to be a mistake.
Here's the beauty of the thing. The enlightened few who would stop at nothing to create a Christian theocracy balance out the enlightened few who would stop at nothing to remove all religion from America, replacing pluralism with secularism. Thus the rest of us, somewhere in the middle, are allowed to live, work, and pray in peace.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:39 PM   #95
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Yes, and now they are even asking for building mosques and tomorrow they are taking us over!

Seriously, the reasons for why our churches are empty and religion doesn't play such a role anymore (and yet we oppose any kind of torture) are so many it would fill books easily.

I really wish to know what exactly Romney is trying to say there, but I guess the people this was aimed to did understand.
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:47 PM   #96
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Originally posted by nathan1977


Damned if you do mention religion, damned if you don't, right? And since I spend time in Europe every year, I think he described it quite accurately. Churches are empty. Christianity is on the wane. Islam is on the rise. It is what it is, but there are a large number of people here who don't want that. Are you going to tell them they can't?
No. I think there have been many canidates that have mentioned religion without making people's skin crawl.

Am I going to tell them they can't what?


Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Welcome to the curse of representative government.
Oh please, do you really think Christianity is being represented properly in this country?

Why is it so hard for people to accept that if I ran for president next time around(for that's when I'd be elgible) and got elected, that they would have a president that believed in God, but:

wouldn't push for creationism being taught in science classes, because it's not a science.

wouldn't push ammendments denying rights to certain people because some people of my religion interpret that some people are sinners.

had no problem with nativity scenes on private property, but they don't belong in front of a courthouse.

All humanity is equal. I don't care if you are white, black, straight, gay, Muslim, Jewish, Christian, athiest, etc you will all have an equal playing ground and all have the same rights.

Why is that so fucking hard for people?
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:48 PM   #97
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Originally posted by nathan1977


That's funny, since people like Obama, Hilary, Bono, etc seem to equate "people of faith" with progressive, compassionate, caring, active people.
Right, that reminds me of this part of Romney's speech.

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I think that Jesus would be disappointed in our ignoring the plight of those around us who are suffering and our focus on our own selfish short-term needs. I think he would be appalled, actually."
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Old 12-07-2007, 01:57 PM   #98
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

No. I think there have been many canidates that have mentioned religion without making people's skin crawl.

Am I going to tell them they can't what?

Are you going to tell them that they can't want something different -- that they can't want (and vote) to have things like public nativity scenes, etc.

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Oh please, do you really think Christianity is being represented properly in this country?
By whom? Certainly not the government, but the whole point of representative government is that the voters have the right to elect the candidate that most aligns with their views. And until the Democrats' amazing turnaround after the spanking in the 2004 elections, where they all as one seemed to see the light and push religion back into their language, Republican candidates tended to speak the language of the majority of Americans.

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Why is it so hard for people to accept that if I ran for president next time around (for that's when I'd be elgible) and got elected, that they would have a president that believed in God, but...
Go ahead. But if your views don't line up with the majority of Americans, don't complain when they don't elect you. You have the right to run, to speak your views, etc. You don't have the right to have everyone agree with you.

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Why is that so fucking hard for people?
Because people have the freedom to disagree with you, BVS.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:03 PM   #99
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Originally posted by nathan1977
Are you going to tell them that they can't want something different -- that they can't want (and vote) to have things like public nativity scenes, etc.
A mature democracy balances the interests of the majority, along with strong protection of minority rights.

Take that for what it is, but the majority isn't always right. That's usually where we end up with "democratatorships" and ethnic cleansing campaigns in certain nations.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:14 PM   #100
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Originally posted by nathan1977


Are you going to tell them that they can't want something different -- that they can't want (and vote) to have things like public nativity scenes, etc.
You can put them in front of a church, your house, hell you can even put them on the roof of your car for all I'm concerned, but they have no place in a town square or courthouse.


Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

By whom? Certainly not the government, but the whole point of representative government is that the voters have the right to elect the candidate that most aligns with their views.
Fine with me, but your "views" start screwing with my education and my rights, you are in the wrong and you views have no place in the political spectrum. If your religion says red-headed people are the devil's spawn and should have rights, so be it, believe that all you want, but you don't have the right to push it into legislation. I don't care if you make up 99% of the country.
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Originally posted by nathan1977

Republican candidates tended to speak the language of the majority of Americans.
And mostly in false tounges.


Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977

Go ahead. But if your views don't line up with the majority of Americans, don't complain when they don't elect you. You have the right to run, to speak your views, etc. You don't have the right to have everyone agree with you.
Who said I did?

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Originally posted by nathan1977


Because people have the freedom to disagree with you, BVS.
Of course they do, but you don't seem to understand something. You have the right to disagree all you want, but you don't have the right to not make another human being equal. You don't, I don't care what your views.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:21 PM   #101
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This has to be the most ignorant thing I've read in FYM in quite some time.

Are you really so blind to reality that you can't tell the difference between this speech and a jihadist call to action? Did he say one thing about Christ? About the founder of Mormonism? Or did he repeatedly call to the common threads of religion in this country?

ETA: this thread really astounds me in its utter disregard for people of faith -- who constitute the vast, vast majority of people in this country. You realize that you're disregarding the deeply felt perspectives and beliefs of about 95% of American citizens, right? Regardless of whether they're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

BVS - just because you don't care about religion, does not mean it does not matter to others.

And the line about America being in the 11th century -- cute.


i will plead guilty to some hyperbole, but i will not plead guilty to the parallel between the stated Al Qaedian restoration of the caliphate to the evangelical call for a "Kingdom" on Earth.

it's the same thing. and it's 11th century.

and 95% of the country are not white protestant evangelicals, and the speech was heavily Christian in tone, even if not explicitly about Christ.

and it did say that there's no room in America for people with no faith. i think as faith goes and how deeply you claim to feel it, you'd find that you're probably in the minority.

this was a Red Meat speech meant to align himself against the "secular humanists." he could have used the word "communist" or whatever polemical noun in whatever historical context and it would have amounted to the same thing.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:24 PM   #102
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Here's a question -- is pluralism the same thing as secularism?


pluralism is impossible without secularism.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:27 PM   #103
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That's funny, since people like Obama, Hilary, Bono, etc seem to equate "people of faith" with progressive, compassionate, caring, active people.


and i'd say that all of them are using the term to mobilize self-identified people of faith in order to achieve their own ends.

it's as loaded and specific and test-marketed and focused-grouped and polled a term as "soccer mom."

and, finally, i find it funny, this defensiveness that "people of faith" seem to have, when they then turn around and claim 95% of the population.
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:50 PM   #104
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This has to be the most ignorant thing I've read in FYM in quite some time.

Are you really so blind to reality that you can't tell the difference between this speech and a jihadist call to action? Did he say one thing about Christ? About the founder of Mormonism? Or did he repeatedly call to the common threads of religion in this country?

ETA: this thread really astounds me in its utter disregard for people of faith -- who constitute the vast, vast majority of people in this country. You realize that you're disregarding the deeply felt perspectives and beliefs of about 95% of American citizens, right? Regardless of whether they're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

And the line about America being in the 11th century -- cute.
OK, I'm a Catholic who goes to church every Sunday. And I completely agree with what Irvine says. So, it's not a "disregard for people of faith."

I agree with what Melon said: Romney's tone was "I hate the same people you do, so it's OK to vote for me!"
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Old 12-07-2007, 02:51 PM   #105
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Now that we've come to equate "people of faith" with "far-right, anti-intellectual conservative Republicans," there is the very realistic possibility that future generations of Americans will reject religion en masse, because they will be unable to separate the political connotations of "people of faith" with the reality that religion, at its core, does not necessarily conform to any one ideology nor does it necessarily demand that one hold preposterous, anti-intellectual beliefs like "young Earth creationism" or "intelligent design."
There is a better than realistic possibility given the strong precedent.

On our continent, you have a very good example of Quebec, which reached a high point of religious hysteria with Duplessis who legislated as if he was presiding over a theocracy. For years, secularists and minorities (particularly those who were Jehovah's Witnesses) faced anything from mild discrimination to blatant discrimination. Eventually the courts got fed up and began to interpret the Constitution correctly, and with that Duplessis' end really began. Now you have the most secular society on the continent resulting from a quasi-theocracy. Eventually self-rejection kicks in and when I look at factions in the US, I often think of Quebec and I often think that the religious right is very shortsighted in failing to see how they may be sowing the seeds for exactly this type of response. That would be, the great irony, of course.

Usually, secularism is borne of extreme religiosity. It is as it has always been.
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