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Old 12-09-2007, 03:29 PM   #316
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Originally posted by Irvine511

nope. he made no room for those of no faith at all. there's no discussion about this. it was a conscious choice on his part to eliminate them from his vision of America.
Would you expect Romney to compliment Japanese automakers while speaking at an SUV plant in Detroit? Would my Subaru be eliminated from Mitt's vision of the road?

It's about audience, and context.
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:30 PM   #317
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Originally posted by Bluer White
But that doesn't mean he doesn't share anything in common with non-believers.


and if asked, what do you think he'd say?

to my mind, the fact that he has to give a speech like this AT ALL is evidence of the deplorable incursion of religiosity into political life. and it's nicely blown up in the GOP's face. they've been saying since 1994, and most strongly since the rise of GWB, that, yes, the specific faith of a president is not just part of a package, but a reason to actually vote for a specific candidate.

and now, they've come to realize that these religious tests aren't exactly in their best interests when it comes to someone who's a little bit different from the modl they've told everyone is the most acceptable.

so Romney did the whole "enemy of my enemy is my friend" thing, and he did it well.

it makes us all worse. but it was good for him.
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:31 PM   #318
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White


Would you expect Romney to compliment Japanese automakers while speaking at an SUV plant in Detroit? Would my Subaru be eliminated from Mitt's vision of the road?

It's about audience, and context.


this was a speech that got national attention, it was long, long planned, and it was also incredibly well scripted and rehearsed and visualized to recall another certain someone from Massachusetts who once had a bit of a religion problem (though notice the difference in JFK's answers to Romneys).

the Romney camp has been asked about atheists and agnostics, and they've refused to answer. even Bush has tossed a bone to "those with no faith at all."
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:32 PM   #319
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

I'm most familiar with it as the first half of Panel Three of the Jefferson Memorial,

but I know the words are taken from his 1785 Notes on the State of Virginia, which I have not read in full.
However, while written specifically about slavery, I find it completely consistent with his famous words form the Declaration.


[q]Romney does not understand the difference between deism and theism, nor does he know the first thing about the founding of the United States. Jefferson's Declaration may invoke a "Creator," but, as he went on to show in the battle over the Virginia Statute on Religious Freedom, he and most of his peers did not believe in a god who intervened in human affairs or in a god who had sent a son for a human sacrifice. These easily ascertainable facts are reflected in the way that the U.S. Constitution does not make any mention of a superintendent deity and in the way that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention declined an offer (possibly sarcastic), even from Benjamin Franklin, that they resort to prayer to compose their differences. Romney may throw a big chest and say that God should be "on our currency, in our pledge," and of course on our public land in this magic holiday season, but James Madison did not think that there should be chaplains opening the proceedings of Congress or even appointed as ministers in the U.S. armed forces. Trying to dodge around this, and to support his assertion that the founders were religious in the Christian sense, Romney drones on about a barely relevant moment of emotion in 1774 and comes up with the glib slogan that "freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom." Any fool can think of an example where freedom exists without religion—and even more easily of an instance where religion exists without (or in negation of) freedom. [/q]
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:33 PM   #320
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

He didn't mention Pantheists either. So I guess volcano worshippers have no place in "Romney's America" either.


it must be nice to be able to be flip about those in the minority when you're so secure in your pampered, coddled, majority status.

i can't wait till the Catholics take over and we're required to pray to Mary every morning before school and the president will end his speeches with, "God bless the United States, and most especially our holy father in Rome."
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:41 PM   #321
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Originally posted by Irvine511



why on earth are Republican candidates asked if they believe every word of the Bible? is this a remotely relevant question?
Good question, I wish someone would have spoken up in the CNN debate and mentioned that the Constitution expicitly forbids religious tests. Why did CNN feel they had to include a question for Republican candidates asked in a such mocking tone by someone that looked like a cross between Eminem and the Unibomber?

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an America that has traditionally ascribed equal unimportance to all faiths, and has thusly been able to all all those of all faiths to practice as they see fit. this is how it has always worked.
Well, I'll end with agreeing with you here. America is at it's finest when we strike a balance between excessive religious influence and excessive secularism, not just tolerating each others faiths (or lack of), but respecting them.
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Old 12-09-2007, 03:55 PM   #322
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511

i can't wait till the Catholics take over and we're required to pray to Mary every morning before school and the president will end his speeches with, "God bless the United States, and most especially our holy father in Rome."
Romney agrees with your sarcasm

Quote:
"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution. No candidate should become the spokesman for his faith. For if he becomes president he will need the prayers of the people of all faiths."
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Old 12-09-2007, 04:04 PM   #323
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Did someone miss the part when he said seculars are wrong?
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Old 12-09-2007, 04:10 PM   #324
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Originally posted by Bluer White


Romney agrees with your sarcasm



i suppose he need the prayers because he's not going to get my (agnostic) vote, and he doesn't seem to want it anyway.

i wonder, as an agnostic, should i get 3/5ths of the vote? should i be allowed to own property?
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:25 PM   #325
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
no one wants government officials to be avowed atheists. nor do we want it to be a requirement that they are all White Evangelical Protestants. i'm still scratching my head at the inability of intelligent posters to realize that the maintenance of the separation of church and state does not in any way mean that "people of faith" (whatever that actually means) don't run for office. it DOES mean that they realize that The Bible has nothing to say on the pressing issues of the day -- taxes, war, abortion, torture, detainment, etc -- and that to invoke God as some sort of justification for a policy or position is intellectually bogus, and as i said before, it's really immature.
Exactly. Pretty simple.

Religion in regards to our history is fascinating stuff. It has affected our history. I'm all for keeping all aspects of our history intact as good learning sources. I'm not religious and yet I'm really not all that bothered by things like "In God We Trust" on our money (though Christians would do well to remember when and why that was added)-it's the typical, "Don't like it, don't look" belief I hold there .

However, Irvine's post is right. Religion and law should stay separate, not just to protect the non-religious, but to protect the religious as well. Christians wouldn't want a Muslim president using their religion to enforce the laws, so they should not be doing it to anyone else.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bluer White
No one has ever won Iowa courting the atheist/agnostic vote.
Not so far. But who's to say that won't change? There are those in Iowa who would be fine with a non-religious president. Keep in mind Iowa also tends to lean Democratic as well, and the particular Democratic candidates running this year seem more open to those of other faiths or of no faith than many of the Republican candidates currently running.

Also, BonosSaint... . Excellent posts from you.

Angela
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:46 PM   #326
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

He didn't mention Pantheists either. So I guess volcano worshippers have no place in "Romney's America" either.
He didn't go out of his way to say they're wrong either, like he did with athiests and agnostics.
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Old 12-09-2007, 08:50 PM   #327
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

He didn't mention Pantheists either. So I guess volcano worshippers have no place in "Romney's America" either.
Wouldn't they fall under his generic "people of faith" or people of religion?
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Old 12-09-2007, 09:13 PM   #328
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


The God on our money, monuments and to which we swear oaths. The God of public religion, Creation and providence.
So it's important we keep the "shout-outs" to God, that we pay the "proper respect", tip our hats to God so to speak? Certainly as a Christian yourself, you realize how little value this type of lip service is to God.

It seems that when we were (supposedly) more of a Christian nation is when we outright stole the land of the Native Americans and enslaved an entire race of people. A lot of good our supposedly more "Christian" nature did us then. . .
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Old 12-09-2007, 10:11 PM   #329
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http://michaelmedved.townhall.com/co...us_and_slavery

http://michaelmedved.townhall.com/co...tive_americans
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Old 12-09-2007, 10:20 PM   #330
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Uh ... wow.
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