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Old 12-08-2007, 11:46 PM   #256
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


What American politicians have arguments against gay marriage that aren't purely religious?
I actually don't know of any and I'm not against gay marriage myself. I don't know if it was illegal in the USSR or not, but tend to think that it was not legal, which would have meant that there would have been a non-religious arguement against gay marriage, but I have no idea what that would have been.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:46 PM   #257
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Originally posted by Strongbow
You see, you have to be careful about how you interpret what other people have said, including what Mitt Romney says. Why not give Mitt Romney the benefit of the doubt, and seek clarification before you hang him for this or that?
I know his background, his party, and his stances. I have a pretty good idea of where he's coming from.

With no doubt in my mind, and with many who will agree with this: He made a speech with the intention of instilling trust among evangelicals worried about his Mormonism. He clearly stated that he was against seculars, because they are too. He clearly stated that religion in policy is a good thing, because evangelicals value that.

What am I misinterpreting here?
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:47 PM   #258
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Originally posted by phillyfan26


Because he said so in his speech?



He's almost literally saying, "If you don't believe in religion, you'll cause freedom to perish, and you disagree with the Constitution."
No, that is what your saying.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:49 PM   #259
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Originally posted by Strongbow


No, that is what your saying.
No, that's what he's saying, in words that aren't so blatant. Only people who read that literally don't come off with a strong impression of anti-secularism there.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:57 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


I know his background, his party, and his stances. I have a pretty good idea of where he's coming from.

With no doubt in my mind, and with many who will agree with this: He made a speech with the intention of instilling trust among evangelicals worried about his Mormonism. He clearly stated that he was against seculars, because they are too. He clearly stated that religion in policy is a good thing, because evangelicals value that.

What am I misinterpreting here?
Your claiming that he does not value the service, thoughts, votes, and lives of those that are non-religious. Just because you advocate for the inclusion and consideration of religious thought, does not mean you are opposed to those that are not religious.

Interesting that you automatically make so many judgements based on which political party he is apart of, or even his background and his stances. I'm sure the people of Massachusetts know a lot about those things as well, and despite being and overwhelmingly democratic state, they made him their governer. Maybe you should weigh that when thinking about him as well.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:59 PM   #261
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


No, that's what he's saying, in words that aren't so blatant. Only people who read that literally don't come off with a strong impression of anti-secularism there.
Well, then along those lines, I could easily claim from what you said above that you did not need his speech to form this opinion about him.
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Old 12-08-2007, 11:59 PM   #262
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'Kay, how about this, then:

Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
[q]Romney Spokesman Won't Say If Atheists Have Place In America
By Eric Kleefeld - December 7, 2007, 9:48AM

A spokesman for the Mitt Romney campaign is thus far refusing to say whether Romney sees any positive role in America for atheists and other non-believers, after Election Central inquired about the topic yesterday

It's a sign that Romney may be seeking to submerge evangelical distaste for Mormonism by uniting the two groups together in a wider culture war. Romney's speech has come under some criticism, even from conservatives like David Brooks and Ramesh Ponnuru, for positively mentioning many prominent religions but failing to include anything positive about atheists and agnostics.

Indeed, the only mentions of non-believers were very much negative. "It is as if they're intent on establishing a new religion in America – the religion of secularism. They're wrong," Romney said, being met by applause from the audience.

http://tpmelectioncentral.com/2007/1...in_america.php

[/q]
What does that say to you?

Angela
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:00 AM   #263
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Oh, you mean his stances, background and political party aren't enough for me to judge him on his ... political stances?

I'm not judging his character. I'm judging his politics.
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:04 AM   #264
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel
'Kay, how about this, then:



What does that say to you?

Angela

An aid, not Mitt Romney himself, declines to comment about something and all of sudden were claiming this and that about Romney.

Seems more like a witch hunt to me.
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:05 AM   #265
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
Oh, you mean his stances, background and political party aren't enough for me to judge him on his ... political stances?

I'm not judging his character. I'm judging his politics.
I think you have a point with his stances and maybe his background, but do you honestly judge someone simply by which political party they are apart of?
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:06 AM   #266
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No. By their politicaly party, background, and stances, like I said.

How did you make that leap?
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:06 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
An aid, not Mitt Romney himself, declines to comment about something and all of sudden were claiming this and that about Romney.

Seems more like a witch hunt to me.
The part in bold wasn't from an aid, that was from Romney himself. Thoughts on that?

Angela
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:07 AM   #268
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow



An aid, not Mitt Romney himself, declines to comment about something and all of sudden were claiming this and that about Romney.

Seems more like a witch hunt to me.
Uh, she bolded Romney's quote that literally says seculars are wrong.
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:10 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


I actually don't know of any and I'm not against gay marriage myself. I don't know if it was illegal in the USSR or not, but tend to think that it was not legal, which would have meant that there would have been a non-religious arguement against gay marriage, but I have no idea what that would have been.
Homosexuality itself was considered illegal in the USSR.

The Soviet Union believed in sacrificing personal liberty for the collective good. They did not extend human rights to everyone and certainly weren't a model for a moral secular government.

Now if the USSR banned homosexuality, much less gay marriage perhaps the reasons were totally secular but to use this as a platform to state the legitimacy of secular opposition is pretty hideous.

Now, you aren't endorsing that train of thought but you are propping up an argument based on it. Perhaps you could just admit that using the USSR as an example of what a legitimate secular viewpoint might look like, was a bad idea. You may not mean to say that but you are absolutely implying it.

Here is an idea, lets forget about communist governments that tried to squash freedoms and talk about democracies who actually want to extend all personal liberties to the individual.

So, we have the United States. We have opposition to basic freedoms to one particular group. Gay marriage. Yeah. the "fags", the last bastion of whipping post bigotry.
I ask you, what is the legitimate secular argument against it?
And when you can't come up with one, don't feel bad, neither can Mitt or anyone else.

This is the point where the wall of separation is supposed to stand up for basic freedoms extended out to everyone. If you don't believe they are equal, because of religous dogma or socialist tyranny, it hardly matters. You're painfully wrong.
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Old 12-09-2007, 12:12 AM   #270
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


The part in bold wasn't from an aid, that was from Romney himself. Thoughts on that?

Angela
Not any different than what your doing from the other end of the table. Again, it does not mean he believes non-religious people are not Americans.
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