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Old 12-08-2007, 08:51 PM   #211
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
And how do you know that Romney is attempting to alienate groups of people in his own country due to their religious views with this speech? I don't think the goal of this speech was to alienate anyone. Its rather easy to take what someone says and claim it means their intolerant of people with certain views.
Are you blind to the fact that the goal was to pander to the evangelicals and slam seculars?
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Old 12-08-2007, 08:53 PM   #212
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


When did Romney use his faith as a justification to start a war or ban gay marriage?

Can you honestly say that no politician is ever impacted by their religion or where ever they get their sense of morality or other beliefs when making policy? Plus, how would you ever be able to objectively determine that independent of what the candidate actually says?

When it comes to this, is Jimmy Carter really any different from Mitt Romney or George Bush?
He's against gay marriage. What other explanation could there be?
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:06 PM   #213
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Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


1, I was saying "someone like" Romney-somebody who has beliefs similar to his could do, and has done, things like that (Bush has certainly used his faith as a means to justify those sorts of issues, after all).

2, he hasn't started either of those things, but he sure supports them. And I feel he would likely continue to support them should he become president. The question then is whether or not he'd enact laws based on his beliefs in regards to those issues. If his speech is any indication, I'd say he would.



I know full well many politicians are impacted by their religion when making policy. What we're saying is that that needs to stop. They can use their faith to determine their own personal views, but when it comes to making laws, they have to look beyond that and realize that what they do will impact people who may very well not be of their faith, and judge whether or not what they decide to do is fair and works for the country as a whole or not.

As for how to determine it, well, I guess I'd say I'd pay attention to their actions. If I see a pattern of their religion influencing their law-making process, I'm going to determine that this is a common thing with them.



I wasn't alive when Jimmy was president, so I can't comment on how much his religion influenced his policy-making. I know it was a factor, as I've heard him reference his faith in the past in the few things I've observed regarding him, but to what extent, I'm not sure.

Angela
Where did Bush explicity say that he invaded Afghanistan or Iraq because his paster or his spiritual feelings told him too? There are certainly people who are not religious who support both of those policies as well. The same could be said about nearly every policy issue as well.

Regardless of what someone believes, your never really going to know to what degree those beliefs(religious or non-religious) impact their policy decisions. Its apart of who they are, and your unlikely to be able to fully seperate thoughts and idea's that originated somewhere back in the individuals upbringing, from how they make decisions today.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:11 PM   #214
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


He's against gay marriage. What other explanation could there be?
Well, that would mean one would have to be religious to support a ban on gay marriage.

Did the USSR allow gay marriage?
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:13 PM   #215
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Was the USSR a democracy that claimed to give everyone equal rights?
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:15 PM   #216
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Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26


Are you blind to the fact that the goal was to pander to the evangelicals and slam seculars?
Are you blind to the fact that many people who oppose Romney want people to believe that is what the speech is all about. Does he actually say in the speech that "seculars" are not Americans or are lower class citizens?
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:15 PM   #217
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


Did the USSR allow gay marriage?
Wow, you're not very good at comparisons.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:15 PM   #218
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Where did Bush explicity say that he invaded Afghanistan or Iraq because his paster or his spiritual feelings told him too?
Uhhhhhh...there's many instances out there where he's talked about God speaking to him in regards to these issues. He even alluded to this whole thing as a "holy war", or something similar to that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
There are certainly people who are not religious who support both of those policies as well. The same could be said about nearly every policy issue as well.
Yes, but they aren't the president and aren't the ones ulitmately responsible for allowing these issues to go forward. And their reasons for supporting them are entirely different from the issue at hand. We're talking about people of faith dictating laws. Those who aren't religious but still support those policies, we'd have to discuss the other factors that led them to supporting that stuff. And that's a whole other topic.

Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Regardless of what someone believes, your never really going to know to what degree those beliefs(religious or non-religious) impact their policy decisions. Its apart of who they are, and your unlikely to be able to fully seperate thoughts and idea's that originated somewhere back in the individuals upbringing, from how they make decisions today.
I disagree, I think you can definitely tell to what extent religion plays a role in what people do. Romney stated as much in his speech. He made it very clear that he was going to continue on the tradition of those leaders before him who've used faith to influence their political actions.

You're right that it's hard to separate one's beliefs from their actions. Again, the problem comes in when people who are unable to separate their particular religious views from their actions are running a country where there's a wide variety of belief systems.

Angela
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:18 PM   #219
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow
Are you blind to the fact that many people who oppose Romney want people to believe that is what the speech is all about. Does he actually say in the speech that "seculars" are not Americans or are lower class citizens?
What is it with you and "actually saying" or "explicitly saying?"

I don't have to read him say those exact words to know exactly what he means.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:34 PM   #220
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


Are you blind to the fact that many people who oppose Romney want people to believe that is what the speech is all about. Does he actually say in the speech that "seculars" are not Americans or are lower class citizens?
What would you think if someone made a speech that had lines like this:

"It is as if they are intent on establishing a new religion in America — the religion of Mormonism. They are wrong."
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:44 PM   #221
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Wow, you're not very good at comparisons.
Hey, I'm just noting that even a non-religious government could have views like that.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:45 PM   #222
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But they're not a democracy...
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:47 PM   #223
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Quote:
Originally posted by Strongbow


Hey, I'm just noting that even a non-religious government could have views like that.
For completely different reasons.

In a democracy I haven't seen one secular argument against gay marriage. Not one, just those of narrow religious interpretations.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:52 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel


Uhhhhhh...there's many instances out there where he's talked about God speaking to him in regards to these issues. He even alluded to this whole thing as a "holy war", or something similar to that.



Yes, but they aren't the president and aren't the ones ulitmately responsible for allowing these issues to go forward. And their reasons for supporting them are entirely different from the issue at hand. We're talking about people of faith dictating laws. Those who aren't religious but still support those policies, we'd have to discuss the other factors that led them to supporting that stuff. And that's a whole other topic.





Angela
I believe Bush called it a "crusade", I don't recall him saying that its a holy war.

Peoples beliefs, faith or non-faith, are the same in this respect. Both could be seen as influencing policy on different issues by people.
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Old 12-08-2007, 09:55 PM   #225
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Strongbow, would you support someone who wanted to make it a law that you couldn't lay with a woman who was mensturating?

Does that have a place in our political environment?
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