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Old 12-07-2007, 06:16 PM   #151
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I'm not saying the total sum of who we are. I'm talking about as a politician. How did you misconstrue that?
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:18 PM   #152
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


It must be very easy for you to segment your life into boxes. The sum total of who we are is not irrelevant. We are who we are, and our politics reflects that, and for better or worse, for many of us, our faith reflects and informs our values, the decisions we make daily.
What are you talking about? How was that post about segmenting your life into boxes?

Yes your faith reflects and informs our values, no one has denied this. But when your FAITH crosses the line of other people's rights, that's when it's your personal faith and no longer is part of the political process.

Use your moral compass to inform your decision on torture, war, etc.

But if your "moral" compass tells you that this person can't have the same rights as you, guess what it's no longer valid.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:34 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


What are you talking about? How was that post about segmenting your life into boxes?
Phillyfan said: "Everyone should vote. But a person's religious views should have nothing to do with it. Nothing at all." This perspective has been shared on this board before, the idea being, "leave your faith outside the voting booth." My whole point is, you can't, and telling people to do so, is both naive and insulting.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:37 PM   #154
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Yeah I think you thurouly misunderstood him...
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:39 PM   #155
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We're voting to elect a person to perform the job of President.

If you own a company and are hiring a person to do a job, does religion have anything to do with that? Aren't you merely looking for the person who can best perform the job? When you go to interview them are you thinking about your religious beliefs and/or theirs? After all, like Mitt says-he isn't running for Pastor In Chief.

You can't ask an interviewee about their religion-and there are reasons for that. I want a good and decent and honest and intelligent person to do the job of President, and that does not require religion. I want a competent person-neither does that. Do I like someone who has faith and is humble about that faith and has it in a certain perspective and is motivated to help the less fortunate because of it ? Yes.
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Old 12-07-2007, 06:46 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
personally, i don't actually care if kids sing Christmas carols in school. i don't care if there's a nativity scene in a public square. i do think that some people can get a little obnoxious about this stuff, though i full understand where they are coming from. i don't think many Christians realize just how unimportant religion is in the lives of so many people, and also how it isn't an all-encompassing source of self-identity for many people, and how nervous people get when talk shifts to how stuff that's nearly totally subjective and individual and personal take on some cosmic objective reality in the mind of the believer.
I fully agree. I think we really need to stop getting so offended over every little thing, especially since, most of the time, many people likely mean no offense with their holiday greetings and decorations and whatever else.

But Christians really do need to put themselves in the other's shoes for a moment. If the situation were reversed, you KNOW there would be many a Christian demanding their equal time in the sun. So they might want to at the very least keep that in mind when issues of religion and its place in society come up.

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
ETA: this thread really astounds me in its utter disregard for people of faith -- who constitute the vast, vast majority of people in this country. You realize that you're disregarding the deeply felt perspectives and beliefs of about 95% of American citizens, right? Regardless of whether they're Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.
Uh...I'm quite sure everybody here has a respect for those of faith, no matter who they are. I know I do. Like I've said many times before, I don't give a flying frisbee what religion you follow. If your faith makes you happy and helps to fulfill your life, wonderful! I'm happy for you, and I hope it continues to be a great asset to your life.

All I ask is that everybody, religious or not, show respect towards those of differing beliefs. Do not try and force your religious views on anybody else. After all, you wouldn't want it done to you, right? And this is why religion and law should remain separate. History has shown that when religion of any kind and law intertwine, it doesn't work out well. Hell, the founders of this country came from an area where they saw the results of religion/law blending. They didn't like it, which is why they wanted a new start.

BVS's last post here about faith and values is absolutely right.

As for that recent quote from Romney...lovely. It's so true-he wants respect when it comes to his faith, and he should have it. But then he should show respect in return.

Angela
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:03 PM   #157
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Speaking from the hell bent secular Europe, at least here in Germany no one cares the least bit about "Frohe Weihnachten" (Merry Christmas), nativity plays or any other Christian elements of the Christmas holidays.

I really don't understand what's the problem of those people.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:04 PM   #158
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So, how much will this speech help Romney in the primaries?

Presumably most of his existing supporters were delighted with his performance. But I'm rather doubtful that it will stop evangelical conservatives from increasingly gravitating towards Huckabee. And I don't really see conservatives who lean towards Giuliani or McCain switching their allegiance to Romney over this speech.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:11 PM   #159
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They just had a thing on the news about how Huckabee is gaining even more support. I agree with you, yolland, I really don't think this speech helped Romney branch out beyond his existing fanbase. It's caused a bit too much controversy for that.

Angela
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:18 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moonlit_Angel

Uh...I'm quite sure everybody here has a respect for those of faith, no matter who they are.
Quoth Irvine a few pages back:
"the white evangelical Protestant 'base' has far, far more in common with the 'evildoers' than they yet know."

Quothing BVS on page one:
"I always have to laugh when someone uses religion and deversity in the same sentence."

Quoth Irvine a few pages back:
"we're the laughingstock of the rest of the world. let's get out of the 11th century."

Quoth Melon a few pages back:
"'people of faith' has become a loaded term for 'reactionary zealot.'"

Respect is a two-way street...
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:24 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Speaking from the hell bent secular Europe, at least here in Germany no one cares the least bit about "Frohe Weihnachten" (Merry Christmas), nativity plays or any other Christian elements of the Christmas holidays.

I really don't understand what's the problem of those people.
I hope they still hold the Passion Play every 10 years in the village of Oberammergau. I mean, they've only been doing it for 400 years.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:29 PM   #162
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977


Quothing BVS on page one:
"I always have to laugh when someone uses religion and deversity in the same sentence."

Um, context. I mean that anyone like Mitt who uses religion and diversity in the same sentence is laughable. I should have clarified since quoting Mitt wasn't enough.

But it is laughable. You say diversity, yet you bash Europe, atheist, you want to deny rights to certain individuals, etc. It's ridiculous.

Earlier I said all humanity is equal, and you responded with "they have the right to disagree with you". How is that diversity? Please tell me.
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:33 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Quoth Irvine a few pages back:
"the white evangelical Protestant 'base' has far, far more in common with the 'evildoers' than they yet know."
Well, if you look at the language some of the leaders use and the language the "evildoers" use, there are some similarities. There's similarities between every fanatical fringe of a religion. That's not wrong. I'm assuming that was more in reference to the spokespeople of the white evangelical Protestant faith instead of a blanket stereotype of all white evangelical Protestants-we don't know all of them, so how can we claim that about them?

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Quothing BVS on page one:
"I always have to laugh when someone uses religion and deversity in the same sentence."
Probably because for the longest time, the two words haven't exactly lived in perfect harmony together? It shouldn't be something to laugh at, I agree. But sadly, as of now, it is. BVS's point has been proven right in this thread.

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Quoth Irvine a few pages back:
"we're the laughingstock of the rest of the world. let's get out of the 11th century."
This country is looked down upon right now by the rest of the world. You can't contest that. And some of the ideals we're still clinging to other people are going to find weird, 'cause they let go of them a long time ago.

Quote:
Originally posted by nathan1977
Quoth Melon a few pages back:
"'people of faith' has become a loaded term for 'reactionary zealot.'"
By some people, it has. melon didn't necessarily say they agreed with that definition, just that a lot of people do indeed see it that way nowadays.

I really think those people you quoted have a general respect for religion-I've seen them show respect before. They are merely pointing out the few within it that are screwing it up. And I'm betting part of it is just frustration and heat of the moment ranting, too. I totally agree, we should try and avoid stereotypes. But there is some truth in these quotes, too, that is worth considering.

Angela
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:54 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But it is laughable. You say diversity, yet you bash Europe, atheist, you want to deny rights to certain individuals, etc. It's ridiculous.
I guess I missed where he bashed Europe and atheists. Is describing the cathedrals of Europe empty bashing them?

Quote:

Earlier I said all humanity is equal, and you responded with "they have the right to disagree with you". How is that diversity? Please tell me.
Our exchange earlier came out of your description of running for president under your own list of perspectives (which, sure, included a belief that all humanity is equal, but which was hardly the only value you posted), and refusing to understand why people wouldn't get it. I said that people have the right to disagree with you, which they do. *shrug*
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Old 12-07-2007, 07:57 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

I hope they still hold the Passion Play every 10 years in the village of Oberammergau. I mean, they've only been doing it for 400 years.

I can't say for sure, but it's a pretty conservative area and I can't imagine they stopped doing so.
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