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Old 01-26-2006, 12:21 AM   #16
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Yea. Sorry I shoulda been specific.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:21 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
The majority of the people in Iraq wanted the US to finish the Job and get saddam out of power, but I think Bush Senior knew it would be a mistake and cause alot more deaths if that happened, as we see today.
Are you saying we've just completed the mistake?
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:23 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by starsgoblue
Yea. Sorry I shoulda been specific.
Well we aren't, I'm not sure what you're asking. I think some feel like we have the right to police the world, and that's not the case.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:25 AM   #19
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In a sense we did. Although this time I dont think the majority of the people, unless you count the Kurds in the north wanted Saddam out of power. We made the mistake of going in ill prepared and the consiquences are huge. We should have kept with Afghanistan. Afghanistan was the country origin that allowed Usma to attack the United States.
We should have gone after N.Korea, the only problem is, we would have to deal with the Chinese.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:31 AM   #20
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Even though Bushes father was also not to bright, at least he knew the consiquences if he were to remove saddam from power.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:35 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
In a sense we did. Although this time I dont think the majority of the people, unless you count the Kurds in the north wanted Saddam out of power. We made the mistake of going in ill prepared and the consiquences are huge. We should have kept with Afghanistan. Afghanistan was the country origin that allowed Usma to attack the United States.
We should have gone after N.Korea, the only problem is, we would have to deal with the Chinese.
In a sense we did what?
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:36 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Justin24
The majority of the people in Iraq wanted the US to finish the Job and get saddam out of power, but I think Bush Senior knew it would be a mistake and cause alot more deaths if that happened, as we see today.
But thats the rub, more people are not dying today. By the numbers there has been a net saving of life creeping towards 100,000+. The stability in the region issue is a key element in what drives terrorism, stability during the cold war was guaranteed by dictators, radical elements against them tended to be Islamist and support was gained by the hatred of foreign proxy governments.

Leaving Saddam in power is not a straw man argument. 30,000 dead Iraqi's and 2000+ American and Coalition soliders is the cost of action. The cost of inaction however can only be guessed at by extending what was going on in the country before Saddam was removed and projecting forward. In the absence of a massive shift and a continuation of sanctions (which we now know were corrupted) we can project Iraqi deaths - rates of around 30,000 dead by the regime anually, even more from lack of nutrition and medicine. The geostrategic implications of leaving him in power are important too, missile deals were being done right up to the start of the war - if sanctions were lifted we now know that the intention to reconstitute weapons programs was there. So many factors and no need to acknowledge them because they now rest in the realm of the hypothetical.

In 1996 Madeline Albright made the position of the Clinton administration quite clear
Quote:
> Leslie Stahl: "We have heard that a half million children have died (as a
> result of sanctions against Iraq). I mean, that is more children than died
> in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?"
>
> Madeleine Albright: "I think this is a very hard choice, but the price, we
> think the price is worth it."
Was a continuation of those policies and all the death that it would entail a price worth paying to avoid war?
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:37 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


Are you saying we've just completed the mistake?
Made the mistake of removing saddam with out really planning it out, or taking him out period.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:40 AM   #24
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But also leaving him in power would result in more death as depicted in those video and what A_wanderer mentioned.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:41 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

I think some feel like we have the right to police the world, and that's not the case.

Ok, what I mean is the use of your term 'policing'. Do you mean that intervention of any sorts in other countries is bad, even if there is nonmilitary and altruistic intent. Or do you mean by acting like the bully on the playground?
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:41 AM   #26
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"His [Clinton's] policies are responsible for killing more Iraqis that George Bush."

-Cindy Sheehan
link

That is a true fact. But he was simply extending a policy built of the decisions of the previous administrations due to the confines of the UN resolutions.

The Reagan and Bush administrations layed the groundwork for a lot of that death.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:44 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
The geostrategic implications of leaving him in power are important too, missile deals were being done right up to the start of the war - if sanctions were lifted we now know that the intention to reconstitute weapons programs was there.
What slays me is one of the Iraqi buildings used by the UK in justification for going to war on the grounds of WMD was financied with UK money. Like I said, the whole thing is a giant mess.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:56 AM   #28
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Very pessimistic, the seperation between domestic insurgency and foreign jihadists has been a good development. The engagement of the Sunnis in the democratic process. The inability of the Shiite religious parties to gain outright majority forcing a balance of power situation with the Kurds, Sunnis and Secular parties. The rumblings of democratic movements around the region. The surrendering of Libya's WMD. The diminished support for Al Qaeda organisations especially among the Iraqi population as they have turned their guns repeatedly upon innocent Muslims.

The very isolationist concepts that seem to have taken route in the left are the antithesis of the internationalism that it once stood for. It is quite a reactionary position that provides a common ground between the right and left.
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Old 01-26-2006, 12:56 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by starsgoblue



Ok, what I mean is the use of your term 'policing'. Do you mean that intervention of any sorts in other countries is bad, even if there is nonmilitary and altruistic intent. Or do you mean by acting like the bully on the playground?
No I just mean it's not our job by definition. If we were the world police we would hold the burden of helping EVERYONE.
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Old 01-26-2006, 01:33 AM   #30
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But doesn't the idea behind the UN imply 'world police' in a sense? I mean it has it's own international court and whatnot. I know that there are other permament member countries of the UN besides the United States but you know what I mean I think.

And while the situation in Iraq is ANYTHNG but another version of the Marshall Plan, wouldn't the question be begged why did/would we help Europe and not other parts of the world? Another MP of sorts for Africa, for example. I know what the obvious answer would seem to be but still...
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