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Old 03-21-2007, 11:21 PM   #31
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No he bloody well wasn't.
Yes he was.
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Old 03-21-2007, 11:26 PM   #32
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Do I have to separate you two?
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Old 03-22-2007, 09:36 AM   #33
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On this subject, I lean towards the latter. In other words, it was neither "right" nor "wrong," but, instead, unimportant.
Yes, that's hilarious to say that this speak, or this term, was the reason for the collapse of the Soviet Union.

I always thought it was David Hasselhoff's I am looking for freedom.



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Old 03-22-2007, 09:52 AM   #34
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On this subject, I lean towards the latter. In other words, it was neither "right" nor "wrong," but, instead, unimportant.
"The march of freedom and democracy will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash heap of history."
"Evil empire."
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."

These words not only signaled to the Soviets that they were no longer dealing with Nixon or Carter but they also gave great hope to the dissidents in the gulags and citizens living in occupied Eastern Europe.
Where others condemned the Soviets, Reagan called them evil and challenged the legitimacy of their system, labeling it not just wrong but immoral.

And as Margaret Thatcher said at his funeral "Ronald Reagan won the Cold War without firing a shot?"

The world could do with more "cheerleaders" like Ronald Reagan.
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Old 03-22-2007, 10:00 AM   #35
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Originally posted by INDY500

These words not only signaled to the Soviets that they were no longer dealing with Nixon or Carter but they also gave great hope to the dissidents in the gulags and citizens living in occupied Eastern Europe.
LOL.

As a citizen of Eastern Europe at the time, believe me, it didn't have this magical impact you're imagining.

Most people were pissed off at the inflation rates and lack of products on shelves and it was clear that Communism was ending, with or without your Reagan.

I asked my Mom and she didn't even remember this speech, much less did it give her some incredible hope you're implying.
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Old 03-22-2007, 10:09 AM   #36
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
I stumble myself upon seeing anything good in the Soviet Union.
But does that make it evil?

What exactly was "evil"?
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:14 AM   #37
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Originally posted by INDY500


"The march of freedom and democracy will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash heap of history."
"Evil empire."
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."

These words not only signaled to the Soviets that they were no longer dealing with Nixon or Carter but they also gave great hope to the dissidents in the gulags and citizens living in occupied Eastern Europe.
Where others condemned the Soviets, Reagan called them evil and challenged the legitimacy of their system, labeling it not just wrong but immoral.

And as Margaret Thatcher said at his funeral "Ronald Reagan won the Cold War without firing a shot?"

The world could do with more "cheerleaders" like Ronald Reagan.
When he held this speech, Glasonost and Perestroika were already in full progress.
The people of East Germany didn't went on the streets because Reagan told Gorbachev to tear down the wall (by the way, it is a very interesting story how it came to this sentence. Reagan and some of his staff werer visiting ordinary Berliners, and when they got asked what pissed them off the most they simply replied it was the wall going through the city).
Nevertheless, the economy in East Germany and the whole countries of the Soviet Union was so weak they couldn't survive any longer. First the Solidarnosz movement in Poland, and later the downfall of East Germany gave Gorbachev enough reason and strength to put an end to the Soviet Union.

Of course it is a bit off to say the Soviet Union of Gorbachev's time was the evil empire. The "empire" of his predecessors sure was evil (historians estimate that all in all Stalin alone killed up to 150million people).
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:29 AM   #38
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega


When he held this speech, Glasonost and Perestroika were already in full progress.
The people of East Germany didn't went on the streets because Reagan told Gorbachev to tear down the wall (by the way, it is a very interesting story how it came to this sentence. Reagan and some of his staff werer visiting ordinary Berliners, and when they got asked what pissed them off the most they simply replied it was the wall going through the city).
Nevertheless, the economy in East Germany and the whole countries of the Soviet Union was so weak they couldn't survive any longer. First the Solidarnosz movement in Poland, and later the downfall of East Germany gave Gorbachev enough reason and strength to put an end to the Soviet Union.

Of course it is a bit off to say the Soviet Union of Gorbachev's time was the evil empire. The "empire" of his predecessors sure was evil (historians estimate that all in all Stalin alone killed up to 150million people).
Well, I'm not going to argue with a German about the Berlin wall, I'm sure you know more than I. But it was built of coarse, not to protect the citizens of East Germany, but to hold them in place. Wirtschaftswunder in West Germany, oppression in East Germany. That wall was more than an eyesore, it was a barrier to freedom for millions.
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:35 AM   #39
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Yes it was, but nevertheless Reagans "tear down this wall" wasn't more than it was, a sentence that became historic.

Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" has so much more power and influence up to this day. This is a sentence that gets cited over and over again, not Reagan's speech or sentence.

The Monday protests didn't start after they heard Reagan's speech, sorry.
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Old 03-22-2007, 11:44 AM   #40
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Yes it was, but nevertheless Reagans "tear down this wall" wasn't more than it was, a sentence that became historic.

Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" has so much more power and influence up to this day. This is a sentence that gets cited over and over again, not Reagan's speech or sentence.

The Monday protests didn't start after they heard Reagan's speech, sorry.
Always nice to have the perspective of someone who's actually lived history. I've been to Deutschland but never Berlin, I'm sure it's all very interesting.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:00 PM   #41
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Yes, it's definitely an interesting city. My aunt has a little book with some tours for a bike ride, and one of these is along the Berlin wall. I'm planning on doing it when the summer comes.

Berlin is still recovering, and has much to discover.
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Old 03-22-2007, 12:39 PM   #42
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Originally posted by INDY500


Always nice to have the perspective of someone who's actually lived history. I've been to Deutschland but never Berlin, I'm sure it's all very interesting.
That's why when you make the sort of statements you've made here, you should really ask yourself first whether they are factual or if they're just something you've been told and believed it to be true.

Like this speech - it simply was not at all what you characterized it to be.
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:46 PM   #43
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Originally posted by anitram


That's why when you make the sort of statements you've made here, you should really ask yourself first whether they are factual or if they're just something you've been told and believed it to be true.

Like this speech - it simply was not at all what you characterized it to be.
No, I'm being civil and acknowledging that Vega, like yourself, have life experiences that I don't. I'm not going to argue with anyone over what they saw when I wasn't there. I respect your thoughts.

However, I have read books and heard others speak that were in the Gulags and were living under Soviet oppression which expressed "the sort of statements (I) made here" much more passionately than I.

And certainly you will agree that two people can listen to the same speech and hear two different things. Be it Ronald Reagan or Al Gore.
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Old 03-22-2007, 07:50 PM   #44
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Well, fans of Reagan say: "Reagan made the Berlin Wall come down."
Fans of Kohl say: "Kohl made the Berlin Wall come down."
Fans of Gorbachev say: "Gorbachev made the wall come down."

And so on.
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:15 PM   #45
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
Well, fans of Reagan say: "Reagan made the Berlin Wall come down."
Fans of Kohl say: "Kohl made the Berlin Wall come down."
Fans of Gorbachev say: "Gorbachev made the wall come down."

And so on.
I'm suddenly in the mood to crank-up Achtung Baby.
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