Everyone's talking about Obama, when McCain's allied with John Hagie

[Muldfeld]

Reverend Wright makes perfectly rational parallels between America's support for Israeli attrocities and 9/11, or about repudiating the poor treatment of blacks in America.

Obama's speech really won me over. Fantastic stuff showing the complexity of the issue and his political courage to not just deal with this as a pat issue. There's a darkness within all of us, and the best way forward is not to just dismiss supposed racists as though they were evil, but to understand where this comes from. We all have our impulses of racism. Yet the mainstream media keeps attacking Obama as though he said something offensive, instead of trying to elevate the dialogue to the truth.

Anyway, if the mainstream media were honestly fair, it would publicize John McCain's connections to the racist, virulently pro-Israeli, yet also anti-Jewish and virulently anti-Palestinian politics of Reverend John Hagie.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/profile.html
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch2.html

Here's a follow-up discussion where the Rabbi especially makes many correct points about Israel and the treatment of Palestinians.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10052007/watch3.html

 

[deep]

Below is a link to an article about the church and the pastor where McCain is a member

North Phoenix Baptist Church,

I would not attend either of their churches, I disagree with what both of their pastors have said and I believe children should not hear their messages.

 

[verte76]

I wouldn't attend either church as I'm a practicing Catholic.

 

[verte76]

It's not fair that everyone's talking about Obama when McCain's allied with this nut who's picking on gays.

 

[verte76]

Southern Baptists control my state dammit!

 

[Dreadsox]

I really do not see any parallels.

THe vile hatred spewed out of Obama's pastor....

ANd the REDICULOUS historical interpretation on his part - were pretty damn insulting.

-----------------------------

 

[Bluer White]

I really do not see any parallels.

I don't either. This Hagee fellow wasn't his pastor or self-described mentor of 20 years. Apples and oranges.

McCain has a long record to for the public to base his judgement on. So does Senator Clinton.

Obama has much less of a record, and while that has been be a big plus for most of the campaign, it can also leave voters to fill in the blanks. Fairly or unfairly.

 

[financeguy]

I really do not see any parallels.

THe vile hatred spewed out of Obama's pastor....

None so blind as those who will not see.

If white America told the truth for one day its world would collapse.

Was Obama's pastor responsible for invading Iraq?

Who are the real haters?

 

[anitram]

I really do not see any parallels.

THe vile hatred spewed out of Obama's pastor....

ANd the REDICULOUS historical interpretation on his part - were pretty damn insulting.

-----------------------------

And what Hagee has said is not pretty damn insulting??

 

[Jeannieco]

None so blind as those who will not see.

If white America told the truth for one day its world would collapse.

Was Obama's pastor responsible for invading Iraq?

Who are the real haters?

Exactly, where is the love and compassion that Jesus spoke of people?
Love thy neighbor...
Turn the other cheek...
Love thine enemies...
"Blessed are the peacemakers for the shall be called the children of God..."

Even if you aren't a believer in Jesus, those are some very powerful words.

Obama is trying to bring about understanding and enlightenment while not abandoning a friend.

We could all learn from this....his bravery humbles me.

 

[Dreadsox]

And what Hagee has said is not pretty damn insulting??

I still fail to see the parallels.

Did he say Damn America?

Did he twist the history of the country?

Did he imply 9/11 was justified?

Oh yeah - The AIDS conspiracy....

 

[Dreadsox]

None so blind as those who will not see.

If white America told the truth for one day its world would collapse.

Was Obama's pastor responsible for invading Iraq?

Who are the real haters?

Nope - Hillary and the congress was.

 

[Dreadsox]

Exactly, where is the love and compassion that Jesus spoke of people?
Love thy neighbor...
Turn the other cheek...
Love thine enemies...
"Blessed are the peacemakers for the shall be called the children of God..."

Even if you aren't a believer in Jesus, those are some very powerful words.

Obama is trying to bring about understanding and enlightenment while not abandoning a friend.

We could all learn from this....his bravery humbles me.

Obama is trying to save any chance he as at winning the election by distancing himself and staying close to his base - because without the 90% support of African Americans, this guys campaign would be going nowhere.

He most certainly is not running around playing Jesus.

 

[Jeannieco]

Obama is trying to save any chance he as at winning the election by distancing himself and staying close to his base - because without the 90% support of African Americans, this guys campaign would be going nowhere.

He most certainly is not running around playing Jesus.

Hey ya, I didn't say Obama was plyaing Jesus. I was responding to the hate/war mongers attitudes about starting the Iraq war quoted in the response I was replying to.

That aside, Obama's base in is not only African Americans, it's us... ALL of us. When he won the majority vote in IOWA the least diverse place in this country just about, that's when the community got behind him because they honestly did not think he had a chance. Lo and behold, he is reaching people everywhere because he is the real deal like it or not. Speaking truth to power is always greeted with skepticsm, resistance, and a lot of hate.
He is teaching us to dream, and reach for it, believe in it, because this is about US, not him.

Race never had anything to do with my support of him.
It's his message, and those that haven't been touched by it yet, haven't been listening.

But that's cool, whatever.... Carry on.....
Peace

 

[anitram]

I still fail to see the parallels.

Do you need it to be exactly parallel to find it offensive?

Damn America and Catholic Church = Whore of Satan, frankly I'm not really sure that one offends me more than the other.

 

[Dreadsox]

Do you need it to be exactly parallel to find it offensive?

Damn America and Catholic Church = Whore of Satan, frankly I'm not really sure that one offends me more than the other.

I would say it is a stretch - to link McCain to this person. Yes.

Obama sits in a church for twenty years - and suddenly is surprised to hear these clips?

There is a parallel?

Just feels like grasping a political straws.

 

[Utoo]

Did he say Damn America?

Did he twist the history of the country?

Did he imply 9/11 was justified?

You fail to see parallels, I fail to see how one can fail to recognize that someone who feels that his race has gotten the shaft for two centuries by a country that still harbors racial preferences domestically, and whose current foreign policy sucks ass, could possibly fathom saying "damn america."

And flame away, but without going anywhere near so far as saying 9/11 was "justified," I think it's folly to believe that our shitty foreign policies and commercial colonialism had no part whatsoever in creating the ideologies that led to 9/11. Starbucks, afterall, moved into Iraq mere weeks after its fall.

 

[Dreadsox]

Hey ya, I didn't say Obama was plyaing Jesus. I was responding to the hate/war mongers attitudes about starting the Iraq war quoted in the response I was replying to.

That aside, Obama's base in is not only African Americans, it's us... ALL of us. When he won the majority vote in IOWA the least diverse place in this country just about, that's when the community got behind him because they honestly did not think he had a chance. Lo and behold, he is reaching people everywhere because he is the real deal like it or not. Speaking truth to power is always greeted with skepticsm, resistance, and a lot of hate.
He is teaching us to dream, and reach for it, believe in it, because this is about US, not him.

Race never had anything to do with my support of him.
It's his message, and those that haven't been touched by it yet, haven't been listening.

But that's cool, whatever.... Carry on.....
Peace

I supported the Iraq war. I guess if that makes me a hate monger so be it.

Obama won Iowa because he has a grass roots campaign. If you notice he does well in states where the process is not a primary state.

The election is not a caucus. It is also winner take all in electoral college delgates. If the democratic party were not giving out delegates proportionally, and if Michigan and Florida had not bucked the system, Hillary would bery likely be the nominee.

Carry on?

I do not Obama to make me dream. The real world is not going to sit down singing Kumbaya because we have a dreamer for a President.

Carry on:O)

 

[anitram]

The election is not a caucus. It is also winner take all in electoral college delgates. If the democratic party were not giving out delegates proportionally, and if Michigan and Florida had not bucked the system, Hillary would bery likely be the nominee.

And if my parents were the Hiltons, I'd be rich. So?

Hillary knew what the rules for getting the nominations were. She didn't bother with most of the states, she employed a quasi-Giuliani approach, she had a shitty grassroots campaign, and on and on.

 

[Dreadsox]

You fail to see parallels, I fail to see how one can fail to recognize that someone who feels that his race has gotten the shaft for two centuries by a country that still harbors racial preferences domestically, and whose current foreign policy sucks ass, could possibly fathom saying "damn america."

And flame away, but without going anywhere near so far as saying 9/11 was "justified," I think it's folly to believe that our shitty foreign policies and commercial colonialism had no part whatsoever in creating the ideologies that led to 9/11. Starbucks, afterall, moved into Iraq mere weeks after its fall.

You think Osama Bin Laden gives a flying shite about commercial colonialism? Please.

Please spare me the history lecture. What he said has NOTHING to do with anything other than a biased postion! Not two centuries of history. MLK had more reason to hate than this guy, forty-years removed from the Civil Rights ACT.

 

[Dreadsox]

And if my parents were the Hiltons, I'd be rich. So?

Hillary knew what the rules for getting the nominations were. She didn't bother with most of the states, she employed a quasi-Giuliani approach, she had a shitty grassroots campaign, and on and on.

If you read the quoted post insted of jumping all over me - the other poster referred to IOWA as the great demonstration of his political stregnth.


He cannot win the general election based on his primary performance and he will have to come up with something better than being an inspiration for the dreamers, because the majority of the country will be looking for substance.

PERIOD - That is my point.

He is one election to early in his political career. That makes me sad, because, there will not be many more like him in my lifetime. Honestly.

 

[anitram]

MLK had more reason to hate than this guy, forty-years removed from the Civil Rights ACT.

Not everyone is MLK. Did Malcolm X have the same disposition as MLK, operating during roughly the same era? Absolutely not. Why should I expect them to? Are they not different people who lived different lives and maybe reasonably came to different conclusions?

The blacks of South Africa, more than a decade removed from apartheid....angrier and more dissatisfied than Mandela. Are you going to tell them they have less reason for their anger now? I don't really see how I should deem them to behave in a specific way based on what I think is historically apt.

 

[anitram]

He is one election to early in his political career. That makes me sad, because, there will not be many more like him in my lifetime. Honestly.

Maybe, and maybe not. None of us KNOW today what will happen in November - may as well be a million years away.

Hillary should fire half her people for running a godawful campaign. The woman has been planning this for years, she had the entire establishment, she was outraising everybody by substantial margins, she had name recognition, and this is the best she can do?

You might be sad about Obama, I guarantee you that I'm sadder about Hillary. I wanted her to be president for years. There are some great ideas she brought to the table back in the early 90s. This woman I see now? I don't like her, and in fact, I find her distasteful on a level that really personally bothers me. I am not sure when we'll get another woman who could be president. It could have been her, now all I see is somebody I'd rather not see (or hear).

 

[Utoo]

You think Osama Bin Laden gives a flying shite about commercial colonialism? Please.

Nope. Attacking the World Trade Center twice was just cool because they were big buildings.

Please spare me the history lecture. What he said has NOTHING to do with anything other than a biased postion! Not two centuries of history. MLK had more reason to hate than this guy, forty-years removed from the Civil Rights ACT.

MLK was only 12 years Wright's senior. They lived through the same times. Wright has even more reason to be ticked because he's seen how far away the "promised land" still remains.

Are you black, or just your avatar? If indeed you are, I've probably been able to catch more cabs than you. I'd be pretty pissed.

 

[Dreadsox]

Not everyone is MLK. Did Malcolm X have the same disposition as MLK, operating during roughly the same era? Absolutely not. Why should I expect them to? Are they not different people who lived different lives and maybe reasonably came to different conclusions?

The blacks of South Africa, more than a decade removed from apartheid....angrier and more dissatisfied than Mandela. Are you going to tell them they have less reason for their anger now? I don't really see how I should deem them to behave in a specific way based on what I think is historically apt.

Considering that MALCOM was killed before his story could play out fully, I would say that you cannot know the sadness I feel that he did not get to play out the direction I think historically he was heading.

You think ten years is enough time? I do not.

I am not responsible for the slavery, the oppression, the segregation. Most of the people I know, are descendants of immigrants from the last 100 years. I would not say they are responsible for it either. Forty Years since the Civil Rights, and because I and others find this man's comments disgusting, and spreading of the hatred that MLK opposed........I am somehow painted to be somehow wrong in my view.

Go Figure.

 

[Dreadsox]

Nope. Attacking the World Trade Center twice was just cool because they were big buildings.



MLK was only 12 years Wright's senior. They lived through the same times. Wright has even more reason to be ticked because he's seen how far away the "promised land" still remains.

Are you black, or just your avatar? If indeed you are, I've probably been able to catch more cabs than you. I'd be pretty pissed.

Economic targets are appropriate in a time of war. Osama declared war years before the 9/11 attacks.

Congratulations on your proud achievement.

 

[Dreadsox]

Maybe, and maybe not. None of us KNOW today what will happen in November - may as well be a million years away.

Hillary should fire half her people for running a godawful campaign. The woman has been planning this for years, she had the entire establishment, she was outraising everybody by substantial margins, she had name recognition, and this is the best she can do?

You might be sad about Obama, I guarantee you that I'm sadder about Hillary. I wanted her to be president for years. There are some great ideas she brought to the table back in the early 90s. This woman I see now? I don't like her, and in fact, I find her distasteful on a level that really personally bothers me. I am not sure when we'll get another woman who could be president. It could have been her, now all I see is somebody I'd rather not see (or hear).

Well, she has bothered me too. I am lookint at my daughter who continues to live in a world where she is not treated as an equal. She wanted to know why the woman's college basketball games are not in HD. Kind of sad that at ten, you know things are different.

She has been rooting for Obama - she says Hillary looks like she is forcing her smiles and she wants to know why she does not blink.

A month ago we spent a day at the Kennedy Library. She loved it and says she will run some day.

I can only hope.

 

[Utoo]

Economic targets are appropriate in a time of war. Osama declared war years before the 9/11 attacks.

Again, I wonder why?

Congratulations on your proud achievement.

Thanks, I'm most proud that I've achieved it 40 years after the Civil Rights Act.

 

[Dreadsox]

I thought you figured it was about the tall cool buildings.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

To be honest your humor sarcastic or otherwise about the trade center - has struck a personal chord with me due to the loss of people close to us.

Thanks for the dialogue though.

 

[anitram]

You think ten years is enough time? I do not.

It has been nearly TWENTY years in South Africa. So that is half the time since the Civil Rights Act...and yet, the situation is now worse. Should we take the position that enough time has passed?

40 years may be enough for one man, not for another. 20 years may still be 100 years away. I'm not sure that third parties such as ourselves should be the arbiters of when an individual who lived through oppressive times should be over it to our level of satisfaction.

I have friends who lived through terrible times with me, when we were children. I am sitting here with a 6 figure salary in one of the best countries in the world while some of them are alcoholics with severe mental problems. I don't presume to think that we should all have the same method of coping with this world, that's all I'm saying about your comments that it's been 40 years.