European Christianity in decline

[nathan1977]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060109/cm_usatoday/isgoddeadineurope

Thoughts?

 

[nbcrusader]

"Europe is showing us where this path leads. It is not the right path for America."

Good summary

 

[deep]

In his 2001 book, The Death of the West, conservative commentator
Patrick Buchanan argues that a European-style "de-Christianization of America" is the goal of many liberals - and they are succeeding.

and he has advice about the U. S. relationship with Israel, too.

 

[nbcrusader]

and he has advice about the U. S. relationship with Israel, too.

I thought the article was about Europe, not Buchanan

 

[deep]

I thought the article was about Europe, not Buchanan

i did read the article

and my quote is in the article supporting the article's premise

If Buchannan is to be believed about Europe,

is he not to be believed about the U. S. relationship with Israel?

 

[nbcrusader]

An odd bit of logic, to be sure.

 

[BVS]

As only an occasional visitor to Europe, I claim no expertise in these matters.

This pretty much sums up this article.

There aren't any facts, just a lot of speculation.

And it seems like he's talking about the decline in Catholocism, not Christianity...

 

[deep]

An odd bit of logic, to be sure.

sure, the whole article is


but, they will print what certain groups
want to hear that validate their world view.

 

[nbcrusader]

Then why not address the specifics of the article?

The Catholic Church has had a significant, yet declining, influence in Europe over the last two centuries. I've seen many state that it is as much a cultural experience as it is religious.

For all the ornate cathedrals in Europe, do people visit them to find God, or to see history?

 

[deep]

for history


it is arrogance to believe that a building can contain god

America could get much closer to God if that stayed away from printed words on money

and from people using his name for their own vanity

by just following the teachings Jesus of Nazareth

Love and Charity and ministering to the poor
was about all he did

he was not concerned about political appointments or putting people in power

or building funds

I believe there are many more people following these teachings in some European countries
than in many parts of the U. S.

claiming something does not make it so.

 

[Rono]

I don`t realy know what to say about this but a church saying that condoms are not helping against the spread off aids and the intollerance against homosexuals could also been a factor of a declining ( Catholic ) Church.

I think a lot of Christians don`t go to a church anymore because they make their religion more privat ( in their homes )

 

[indra]

I don't see the problem. I didn't read anything in the article I find at all alarming, in fact some of the things the author apparently finds frightening, I find positive, such as:

Former French president Valery Giscard d'Estaing, who presided over the process, summed up the dominant view: "Europeans live in a purely secular political system, where religion does not play an important role."

To me, that is ideal.

I guess whether or not you find the decline in belief in god worrisome or not depends on your views. For instance I don't believe that people who believe in god are better than those who don't. I have dealt with vile people who are strong believers and vile people who are staunch atheists. I've dealt with wonderfully good people who are strong believers and wonderfully good people who are staunch atheists. A vile person who believes in god is just going to use that to justify his/her actions, and a wonderfully good believer who loses his/her faith isn't going to turn into a vile person.

I just don't see any reason for the hand wringing.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Post-Christian societies are much more permissive and progressive than their religion influenced equivalents - this can be considered to be a good thing. The price of this is lower birthrates (fewer children later if at all - but definitely below replacement levels) and steady decline in the existing religious structures (and it goes beyond the Catholic Church, there is a decline in the Anglican Church as well - it will be interesting to see if adoption of more progressive religious expression within these structures will save them from extinction).

I am not sure if societies can go on without faith in themselves, if this means a resurgence of faith or a protracted decline that remains to be seen - should be an interesting century either way.

 

[financeguy]

I just don't see any reason for the hand wringing.

Apparently, smaller families are proof of the folly of turning away from God's True Church. (TM)

Far better that we return to the days of tenement slums and 22 child families.

 

[anitram]

Apparently, smaller families are proof of the folly of turning away from God's True Church. (TM)

Far better that we return to the days of tenement slums and 22 child families.

And uneducated women with absolutely no hope of being anything other than a mother to the 22 starving children.

 

[indra]

I didn't quite get the horror over the lower birthrates. There are plenty of people in this world, and more and more ability to move to other locations. When I die, someone will take my place. I don't really care if that person looks like me or not.

 

[A_Wanderer]

As opposed to having 1.2 children per couple? Just see how well a society fares with a few generations of that.

The ideal birth rate is just above 2.0 (accounting for mortality) with a relatively equal division of sexes. The USA has a stable birthrate, most other developed nations do not, they are below replacement levels and a factor in this is probably the abandoning of organised religion.

 

[Otokonoko]

I think it may be a good thing, especially when politicians are starting once again to use the word 'evil' to describe their enemies and justify their wars. And I'm not condemning any wars or politicians here, just the use of the word 'evil' when dealing with a secular issue. Leave the fire and brimstone for the priests and those who choose to believe.

 

[Otokonoko]

Oh, and about birthrates - surely if we keep arguing that the world is overpopulated, lower birthrates are better? In poorer countries they tend to have lots and lots of kiddies so that some will survive. Wealthier people don't have that problem, so I guess a birthrate of 2 or lower is ideal. Either replace the population or let it drop slightly. Don't expand it.

Yes, I know that is very simplistic, but sometimes simplicity works best.

 

[indra]

As opposed to having 1.2 children per couple? Just see how well a society fares with a few generations of that.

The ideal birth rate is just above 2.0 (accounting for mortality) with a relatively equal division of sexes. The USA has a stable birthrate, most other developed nations do not, they are below replacement levels and a factor in this is probably the abandoning of organised religion.

Quite frankly I think it would do most societies good to downsize a bit. Too damned many people as it is. Perhaps the reason the birthrate is falling is that it needs to fall.

 

[anitram]

Considering what a Western baby costs this planet in terms of resources, maybe it's inevitable that there will be a reduction.

 

[verte76]

I'm glad that the Catholic Church doesn't have as much political power as it used to in Catholic countries, and I'm a practicing Catholic. It's not constructive for the government of a country telling people they can't use birth control or get divorced.

 

[A_Wanderer]

If we aren't having enough kids then the government of the future will be getting less money in tax revenue to support more dependent old people. In Australia we enjoy a significant ammount of subsidised healthcare, maintaining that system in the long term presents some challenges that are by no means unique to our elected leaders, I think that the baby bonus is a smart move.

Global population is going to level out like a logarithmic graph at around 10 billion, the majority of that population is going to be religious. Who knows perhaps the very secular and rational societies that we strive towards will be their own undoing. Athough with gene therapies and aging populations with wealth we could wind up with an eternal population.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Quite frankly I think it would do most societies good to downsize a bit. Too damned many people as it is. Perhaps the reason the birthrate is falling is that it needs to fall.

But to a point of demographic suicide? It is implausible but by no means impossible that The West as we know it (a broad set of nations with shared liberal democratic values and economic systems) will cease to exist in a century or two. What sort of nations will take their place, what sort of systems?

I am not certain that that would be a good thing, the best we can hope for is that those values and systems are adopted and furthured by the inheritors.

 

[nbcrusader]

for history


it is arrogance to believe that a building can contain god

An interesting interpretation of my statement.

A building cannot hold God.

Cathedrals were built to honor and glorify God - they were places people met to worship God in Spirit and in Truth. It is not about the building, it is about what goes on inside. Sadly, as you point out, the buildings are for tours, not worship.

America could get much closer to God if that stayed away from printed words on money

and from people using his name for their own vanity

by just following the teachings Jesus of Nazareth

Love and Charity and ministering to the poor
was about all he did

I think you sell the ministry of Jesus far too short. He did not minister to the poor, but to sinners (rich and poor). He was not about simply feeding people bread for today, but offering Himself as the Bread of Life.

 

[Angela Harlem]

If we aren't having enough kids then the government of the future will be getting less money in tax revenue to support more dependent old people. In Australia we enjoy a significant ammount of subsidised healthcare, maintaining that system in the long term presents some challenges that are by no means unique to our elected leaders, I think that the baby bonus is a smart move.

Global population is going to level out like a logarithmic graph at around 10 billion, the majority of that population is going to be religious. Who knows perhaps the very secular and rational societies that we strive towards will be their own undoing. Athough with gene therapies and aging populations with wealth we could wind up with an eternal population.

I partly agree with some of this. Our government is worried at what our population growth is going to do in the coming years especially when you consider their plans (or rumours of) to eventually abolish the aged pension and to make even more cuts to medicare. Our problem is we are living too long and spending nearly a 3rd of our adult life retired instead of working. Not that the aged pension does much to allow people to live moderately, but that's another arguement. Our reliance on immigration to boost our population is not an issue so much when we are breeding enough to help plump it up, but we are not. As for the baby bonus, yes it is a good idea for families or steady couples who are ready for children. But it also attracts those who aren't necessarily ready. And with the (again rumoured) increase to $6,000 by 2008, who knows what that will do to the welfare system. It's apparently definitely going up to $4,000 by next June already. Anyway, guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[financeguy]

Analyses based purely on current population replacement rates are overly simplistic and ignore the positive effects inward immigration can have, provided it is well managed.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Australia has had a lot of sucess with immigration over the years. About a quarter of our resident population was born overseas, the highest rate since federation.

 

[indra]

But to a point of demographic suicide? It is implausible but by no means impossible that The West as we know it (a broad set of nations with shared liberal democratic values and economic systems) will cease to exist in a century or two. What sort of nations will take their place, what sort of systems?

I am not certain that that would be a good thing, the best we can hope for is that those values and systems are adopted and furthured by the inheritors.

To be blunt I don't much care what happens in a century or two. I think people are too worried about this world not being the same in 100 or 200 years. Of course it's not going to be the same as it is now! It will move and change and develop into something we can now only imagine. And that to me is a good thing -- not something to fear.

I'm sure people 100 - 200 years ago couldn't anticipate the current world, and most probably would have been horrified if they had a view into the future. But I'm very glad it's not the same world they had, and I'm betting the people a century or two from now will feel the same way.

So I don't see that declining population is such a big ass deal.

 

[Angela Harlem]

What's inward immigration? Never heard the term before. It's been said if it were left up to us alone, our population would shrink due to our inability to breed with each other so we need our immigrants. And I dont mean we're suckers for blokes with accents, though it does help