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Old 01-05-2006, 03:22 AM   #16
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words are funny enough as it is. I don't even know how I shoud address this subject, at the moment
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Old 01-05-2006, 03:39 AM   #17
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Originally posted by bonoman
What about hate laws in the US and Canada?

Do they not limit your free speech?

Why, if someone is saying that the the mass murders of Jews never happened, should be exempt from hate laws. I believe it falls in the same bracket.
I don't think that the US has hate speech laws like the ones your talking about, Australia has a few of them. In any case these hate speech laws are limits on free speech and they should be removed.
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Old 01-05-2006, 03:56 AM   #18
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Originally posted by lady luck

I agree.
I live in Italy and we, too, have a law that prohibite to show support or agreement with Fascism/Nazism.
I am not sure that you go in prison if you do that -- perhaps you will get a fine.
Yeah you're right. Here there's a contitutional crime called "apologia di fascismo" (something like "defending fascism") and it lead you straight to jail.
(eh eh! my law studies help me here... )
For the rest yeah I agree for the problems in the freedom of speech here, but I think that luckily the system holds well at the end (everyone still feel free to criticise everything).
Or at least it's not holding less than other Counties (and I don't know how to interpret this... )
That said, my vote will never go to Mr.B and my personal opinion is that we developed anticorps against anti democratical forces 50 years ago...
Ciao,
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(OMG how much did I wrote?And I'm still writing....aaaaahhhh!!please stop me! )
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Old 01-06-2006, 08:48 AM   #19
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I don't want to tell the Austrian people what their laws should be, it's none of my damn business. But I question the idea that this might hurt their national security, as Valerie Plame's uncovering did. Since this guy Irving is not even Austrian, I don't know why this should hurt Austria. Austria has a pretty tortured past as per Nazi/Fascist politics is concerned, hell, Hitler was a native of Austria, and I can see why they want to disavow any connection with him. If I were Austrian I might feel the same way. But I'm not Austrian and I can only comment on what I have experience with.
You don´t know why this would hurt Austria´s reputation? I will try to explain because you said we want to disavow any connection with Hitler. This is wrong. The contrary is the case.

You are talking as if we have put this Irving into prison because we want to roll a blanket over the country´s history!

The situation is a little more complicated. We do NOT want to disavow any connection with Hitler!

We, as Austrians, want (and need) to admit our fault. That´s why the law was created in the first place. We supported a dictatorship that put 6 millions of Jews, Roma, Homosexuals and other minorities into concentration camps. This dictatorship was officially in power, supprted by a majority of Austrians! Compare that with the KKK? Comeon, in the U.S. you never had that. The KKK committed crimes that were just as cruel as the Nazis´ crimes, but there is a difference: the KKK never was in (political) power.

Probably you don´t know how Austria acted in the 50s and 60s: at this time, we did not talk much about fault. It was not "appropriate", since there were so many ties - maybe your father was a Nazi, or your cousin in the SS. Nuremberg trial, etc.

It is one thing to critisize a state that has committed cruel crimes for this. Exactly that is the case with Pamuk, the Turkish writer: he critisized his authorities, his government, for not dealing enough with the crimes the same state committed in the past. For THIS, they put him into prison.

With Irving, the situation is completely different - just the opposite, in fact! He DENIES that the holocaust has happened. The Austrian government/ society is at the point where it says. We (or our fathers) have helped to commit incredible crimes, surely some of the worst crimes in human history. It is our fault and we are sorry, and we will always be sorry for it. But since we have finally come to that point - the point of the official Austria admitting fault - we do not want, better even, we forbid that someone denies that we have committed them.

See? That´s an important difference. If all Austria said "Oh listen, we never supported Hitler, he just overran us" and then Irving writes a book that this is not the case, and then we put him into prison, then you have the same case like in Turkey. In that case, I would want Irving to be free, and I would critisize our government. But the contrary is the case. He lies, he denies - about our history! Morally, it makes a TREMENDOUS difference if a nation officially admits fault for its past crimes or not. We have, and we don´t need a Brit to tell us that we are lying.

You can´t compare apples and oranges. That´s why I think the article asks the wrong questions.

Fascism is strong everywhere. You can´t just rule it out because it has happened. If you think the KKK in America is no problem because in reality there´s no political power to back it up, well, that´s your opinion. In europe we have a different history. We have seen how fast things can change, how easily dictators can control when you let them, how weak the mind of the masses is, how much you can fool them with propaganda. Indeed, it happens every day with openly displayed hate against immigrants. This country, Austria, is still full of Nazis. 20% vote for extreme right parties! It´s just that they´re not allowed to call themselves Nazis anymore.

In reality the bigger problem is that our police kills immigrants and is not charged for it. But I´m telling you, that´s just the tip of the iceberg. If you allow a nazi party here (or the denial of the holocaust to gain any momentum) I´ll tell you what happens: the rats creep out of their fucking holes and you have no means to stop them.

With this law, we have means to stop them. When Haider says " The employment policy of the 3rd Reich was orderly" there´ll be a public outcry and the media will write about it the next 3 months. He didn´t even get into prison for that.. but imagine that this kind of endorsment was legal. The people listen to this guy. He´s still head of the provincial government of Carinthia.

I hope you feel better informed now. The last thing Austrans would do is to disavow connections with Hitler. We just don´t want anyone to lie about that because this is a little more grave than just throwing BS to the media and see what sticks.
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Old 01-06-2006, 08:51 AM   #20
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Originally posted by AvsGirl41
I don't think Irving should be in jail. I loathe the man, but letting him sit there just makes him a martyr for other extremists like him.
No, it just makes him a martyr when a journalist writes about him, so people start talking about him and how wrong it is that this bastard serves his time in jail. Let him rot in prison until the end of time, if no one cares about him, everything is fine, there´s no danger of martyrdom.
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Old 01-06-2006, 08:52 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
I don't think that the US has hate speech laws like the ones your talking about
No, the U.S. does not. Even Holocaust deniers are not doing anything illegal here.

We choose to let our morons blather out in the open, I guess.

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Old 01-06-2006, 12:03 PM   #22
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars
We, as Austrians, want (and need) to admit our fault. That´s why the law was created in the first place. We supported a dictatorship that put 6 millions of Jews, Roma, Homosexuals and other minorities into concentration camps. This dictatorship was officially in power, supprted by a majority of Austrians! Compare that with the KKK? Comeon, in the U.S. you never had that. The KKK committed crimes that were just as cruel as the Nazis´ crimes, but there is a difference: the KKK never was in (political) power.

(snip)

I hope you feel better informed now. The last thing Austrans would do is to disavow connections with Hitler. We just don´t want anyone to lie about that because this is a little more grave than just throwing BS to the media and see what sticks.
I think there is a large gap between disavowing connections to Hitler and perpetually admiting fault. Is there a point where the collective guilt can stop and Austrians recognize that they have moved beyond the sins of a prior generation? It just doesn't seem healthy.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:36 PM   #23
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hiphop...I can understand how such laws would make sense in the time immediately after the war. But how much longer will something like that be necessary or relevant?

The KKK may not have a had a major political party, but in a large part of the south, they might as well have. There was a huge amount of sympathy and tolerance (at best) of crimes against blacks and others.

Personally I even have trouble with the concept of "inciting violence" as a crime, but have eventually had to come to the conclusion that while it's not perfect free speech, it's a practical law to protect society. If your lawmakers really believe that laws against hate speech are entirely practical, necessary, relevant etc then I guess they are appropriate. I just wonder if that's the case 60 years later.
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Old 01-06-2006, 12:46 PM   #24
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


No, it just makes him a martyr when a journalist writes about him, so people start talking about him and how wrong it is that this bastard serves his time in jail. Let him rot in prison until the end of time, if no one cares about him, everything is fine, there´s no danger of martyrdom.
Does it make sense to punish one person for the collective guilt of a nation?
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Old 01-06-2006, 07:28 PM   #25
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I think there is a large gap between disavowing connections to Hitler and perpetually admiting fault. Is there a point where the collective guilt can stop and Austrians recognize that they have moved beyond the sins of a prior generation? It just doesn't seem healthy.
The contrary is the case. Believe me, I understand your mindset, but understand mine. Like I said, the Austrian politicians never admitted fault up until the 1980s!

The sins of a prior generation, that´s all good and nice, you know. Sure, I or an average 20/30 yr old Austrian does not personally feel guilty. It´s not that we´re on a guilt trip or something. But most of us think it is very healthy to remember the past.

Look at the reparations cases. When the Nazis put the Jews away, they also stole all their wealth: antiques, flats, etc., the Jews were "enteignet". Part of the property went to state institutions after WWII. And they never gave them back up until now! In 2005! Payments (and not the largest ones) for the survivors of the holocaust start. Every year some of them die. What about justice?

See, this is all connected. How a country deals with past crimes. What image its giving to other countries. We do not want to forget. These cruelties were so inhume they have to be remembered to serve as a warning example.

That said, I would really like to see the reaction of the American Media (or worldwide for that matter) if there was a new Nazi party in Germany or Austria. Scary, you know. Some people here are still scared of Neonazis. What about their rights? In that case, it is good to protect the victims. I don´t want to see Nazi groups on our streets. I have enough with other assholes, skinheads, hooligans, and a bunch of other morons.
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Old 01-06-2006, 07:30 PM   #26
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


Does it make sense to punish one person for the collective guilt of a nation?
Are you joking?

This person is punished for breaking the law, not for the collective guilt of a nation. It´s incredible what you are saying! You are implying that Austrians throw Neonazis in prison because they have a guilt complex?


Grow up.
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Old 01-06-2006, 07:41 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally posted by VertigoGal
hiphop...I can understand how such laws would make sense in the time immediately after the war. But how much longer will something like that be necessary or relevant?

I just wonder if that's the case 60 years later.
Imo they will be necessary and relevant until this republic sinks.

You may wonder why. I´d say because the holocaust was so devastating it can probably be forgotten in a thousand years. Until then it shouldn´t be a footnote in history. And no national socialist party should have the chance to rise. I think that was even part of the deal with the allies, clear.. you don´t think they would have given Austria independence back in 1955 if there were no clear laws against another danger from Nazis.

I just wonder how Moscow, Paris, London and Washington would diplomatically react to such a development..

Anyway, that´s not the most important point.. the point is that people here would have fear. We just don´t want to see such morons on our streets. Is this so damn hard to understand?
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Old 01-06-2006, 07:49 PM   #28
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


Are you joking?

This person is punished for breaking the law, not for the collective guilt of a nation. It´s incredible what you are saying! You are implying that Austrians throw Neonazis in prison because they have a guilt complex?


Grow up.
The guilt is addressed by having the law and enforcing it.

Can you see why we are uncomfortable with what amounts to a thought crime?
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Old 01-06-2006, 07:52 PM   #29
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Originally posted by whenhiphopdrovethebigcars


The contrary is the case. Believe me, I understand your mindset, but understand mine. Like I said, the Austrian politicians never admitted fault up until the 1980s!

The sins of a prior generation, that´s all good and nice, you know. Sure, I or an average 20/30 yr old Austrian does not personally feel guilty. It´s not that we´re on a guilt trip or something. But most of us think it is very healthy to remember the past.

Look at the reparations cases. When the Nazis put the Jews away, they also stole all their wealth: antiques, flats, etc., the Jews were "enteignet". Part of the property went to state institutions after WWII. And they never gave them back up until now! In 2005! Payments (and not the largest ones) for the survivors of the holocaust start. Every year some of them die. What about justice?

See, this is all connected. How a country deals with past crimes. What image its giving to other countries. We do not want to forget. These cruelties were so inhume they have to be remembered to serve as a warning example.

That said, I would really like to see the reaction of the American Media (or worldwide for that matter) if there was a new Nazi party in Germany or Austria. Scary, you know. Some people here are still scared of Neonazis. What about their rights? In that case, it is good to protect the victims. I don´t want to see Nazi groups on our streets. I have enough with other assholes, skinheads, hooligans, and a bunch of other morons.
Can "not forgetting" be addressed by education, rememberance days, memorials, etc.?

I think you open a dangerous line of thought to punish people because others are scared by their existence. Are we really a victim when someone else's ideas are repugnant?
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Old 01-06-2006, 07:54 PM   #30
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I find your take, Austria's take, on this more than interesting. It is a specific perspective I've had the luxury not to consider, although we deal with our own revisionists and struggle with our own accountabilities. I will think about this. I don't know that I agree with the imprisonment, but I think I understand better where you're coming from and what you have to deal with. Thank you.
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