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Old 11-15-2009, 04:03 AM   #1
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equality blooms with spring, pt. II

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Old 11-15-2009, 04:06 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
The disagreement is not whether homosexuality (man on man sex) is mentioned in the Bible (as we can all look up passages that mention it), but whether or not the homosexual acts potrayed in the Bible were called out as sin because they involved rape and/or temple worship, thus leaving room for the possibility that consenting homosexual relationships were permissible.
Prostitution, rape, pedophillia between a man and a female/ or girl does not equal heterosexuality. So why would it be any different?
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:11 AM   #3
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Doing the best I can to address everyone. A little bit of a one man show here so cut me some slack. Also, if you look back, Melon has left some questions on the table...
Look, I'm not trying to pin you in a corner, it's just that sometimes you avoid the "easy" questions that should be a very cut and dry answer in order to answer others...

And I'm just saying what many are feeling:

You avoid these "easy" questions because you're afraid they will expose you.
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:17 AM   #4
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This is wrong as well... and you've been show this several times as well. It may not be as obvious as the original commandment issue, but it's still a lack of understanding.
BVS, I can see that you have pointed out, more than once, this presumed mistake I made regarding a certain "original commandment issue" some five years ago. I'll make your job easy - I believe there is much I still have learn about the Bible and I by no means consider myself a Biblical Scholar. Can we now move on?
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:24 AM   #5
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And I'm just saying what many are feeling:

You avoid these "easy" questions because you're afraid they will expose you.
Exposed as what? A childish, uneducated, right wing conspiracist, neo-nazi bigot? Is their some new evil label you can place on me that hasn't already been mentioned in here?

I think some of the questions that are being repeated have been answered in other posts - but people aren't satisfied with my original answers and they won't be satisfied unless I actually do say, "yes, I'm a bigot!"
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:32 AM   #6
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Exposed as what? A childish, uneducated, right wing conspiracist, neo-nazi bigot? Is their some new evil label you can place on me that hasn't already been mentioned in here?

I think some of the questions that are being repeated have been answered in other posts - but people aren't satisfied with my original answers and they won't be satisfied unless I actually do say, "yes, I'm a bigot!"
NO I think you're afraid of exposing the fact that you do not have a legal, secular state, consititutional reasoning behing your answer, and you're afraid of admitting that as you try hard to demean our definitions of marriage that in reality outside the individual you don't have a better answer than we do.
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:36 AM   #7
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Prostitution, rape, pedophillia between a man and a female/ or girl does not equal heterosexuality. So why would it be any different?
Are you saying there is no difference in a homosexual prostitute encounter and heterosexual one? - that there is no difference in a homosexual rape and a heterosexual rape? Or are you just stating all are equally wrong (in that case - I agree).

I think one way of looking at it is this: the Bible contrasts those actions above by offering numerous examples and passages of positive heterosexual relationships. In the thousands of years of recorded history in the Bible (maybe only 1,000 for the skeptics) - there is not one example of a positive homosexual experience to offset the negative ones (assuming homosexual admonitions are confined to rape and temple worship).
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Old 11-15-2009, 04:46 AM   #8
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Are you saying there is no difference in a homosexual prostitute encounter and heterosexual one? - that there is no difference in a homosexual rape and a heterosexual rape? Or are you just stating all are equally wrong (in that case - I agree).
I'm saying rape and pedophilia has nothing to do with sexuality. And are both flat out wrong.

And prostitution has nothing to do with relationships.



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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
I think one way of looking at it is this: the Bible contrasts those actions above by offering numerous examples and passages of positive heterosexual relationships. In the thousands of years of recorded history in the Bible (maybe only 1,000 for the skeptics) - there is not one example of a positive homosexual experience to offset the negative ones (assuming homosexual admonitions are confined to rape and temple worship).
How many examples of positive interracial relationships were there? There were positive polygamists weren't there? How many positive unarranged relationships were there? And it's these questions, for I know we've been here before, that make you seem a little short sighted.
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Old 11-15-2009, 05:04 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by melon
I've read the Vatican arguments against homosexuality, and it primarily comes down to its medieval traditions regarding "natural law" from Aquinas
I'm just curious - you said the Catholic Church gets its stance against homosexuality from Aquinas (who wrote in the 1200's) - yet according to you - homosexuality wasn't even conceived by then (and wouldn't be for another 600+ years).
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:37 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by AEON
You make several great points here, Melon. I always find your posts educational and enlightening. I appreciate that you have a strong sense of morality and are on the Christian walk. I am not someone that would question your walk with God or your relationship with Christ. We have discussed at length in the past what the Bible teaches about homosexuality – and you have made many astute observations. However, in the end, we have had to agree to disagree.
Quoted from the previous thread. I don't have a strong opinion on gay marriage myself, my attitude is there are few valid grounds against legalisation, so why not legalise it, but I don't really see it as a fundamental human right to be honest.

That said, I find it intellectually lazy to tie together Christianity with a strong sense of morality in the manner you seem to be doing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, your post carries a clear implication that only someone that is on the Christian walk can have a clear sense of morality.

It goes without saying, or at leas ought to, that what a religious text has to say about the subject is really of no import in adjudging whether or not it should be legalised.
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Old 11-15-2009, 10:42 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
NO I think you're afraid of exposing the fact that you do not have a legal, secular state, consititutional reasoning behing your answer, and you're afraid of admitting that as you try hard to demean our definitions of marriage that in reality outside the individual you don't have a better answer than we do.
Exactly. The laws of modern secular states should not be based on some old book of fairy stories, so I don't even know why we're talking about the Bible here. BTW, it is possible to construct arguments against gay marriage on purely secular grounds, just as it's possible to construct arguments against, say, legalised divorce or pornography on purely secular grounds - though I don't necessarily agree with them.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:12 AM   #12
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Exposed as what? A childish, uneducated, right wing conspiracist, neo-nazi bigot? Is their some new evil label you can place on me that hasn't already been mentioned in here?

I think some of the questions that are being repeated have been answered in other posts - but people aren't satisfied with my original answers and they won't be satisfied unless I actually do say, "yes, I'm a bigot!"



i still want to know what is it about my relationship (and Melon's relationship) that makes it unworthy of state sanctioning and protections. i want to know why heterosexual couples -- always, and in all ways -- are superior to homosexual couples.

what is the danger, as you see it, to legitimizing a same-sex relationship by giving it the same civil status -- not religious -- as an opposite-sex relationship.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:17 AM   #13
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your post carries a clear implication that only someone that is on the Christian walk can have a clear sense of morality.


i would also add that there's the implication that only someone on the Christian walk can have a right and proper marriage, as Christ would have intended.

and in the context of whatever church AEON goes to, that's all fair and fine. but in the eyes of the state of California (where AEON lives)? considering pagans, atheists, jews, etc., can get married so long as they have opposing genitalia, it really does seem as if there's no religious argument that can be applied to the state's recognition of a marriage.

it seems to me that if we are going to be theologically consistent, and point to the Bible as our source of understanding for marriage and this is where we get our opposition to same-sex marriage, then we ought to tell the jews, the atheists, the hindus, the buddhists, etc., that their marriage is not ordained by god.

now, i'd be happy to hear some secular arguments against same-sex marriage. can someone create them? AEON?
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:23 AM   #14
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any chance we can change this gay-assed thread title?

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Old 11-15-2009, 11:26 AM   #15
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We did get off on the Christian/Biblical tangent for a couple of reasons: 1) much of this discussion has been about the Catholic Church charity work and the city government of DC controversy, 2) eventually, when we dig deep enough to determine why we hold certain moral opinions - we will be asked the "source" of our opinions.
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