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Old 11-16-2009, 08:08 AM   #106
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I hear a lot of fear in some of these posts, fear of losing their status, I think there are some white straight males that are scared they will not play the same role in society that their fathers had.

They don't honestly fear that procreation will change, in fact I'm pretty sure most know that the family structure won't change all that much, but they do fear that it's one more advantage that they are going to have taken away from them.
This is a lot of it. Anything that challenges the hegemony of the ruling group is suspect. The same kinds of comments were made when women were attempting to get the vote. It was going to be the end of the world as we know it as well.
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Old 11-16-2009, 08:33 AM   #107
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I've had a few hours to think about things, and I'm leaning toward entirely removing incentives for marriage. In the present state of affairs - it is time I accept that I live in a society that generally does not "think it is prudent" to encourage stable procreation and maintain that "bridge" between generations. Let’s just move to some sort of flat tax model and I’ll be happy.

don't be ridiculous. so come down off the cross AEON, we need the wood.

society loves children, loves marriage, loves it when people get married, and yes, the government should absolutely encourage this kind of behavior.

it just should include gay people as well. in fact, gay people can procreate. you've heard of sperm donation and surrogacy? you've heard of adoption? a gay marriage blends families as well as any straight marriage.

again, and no one's been able to answer this for me, what can straight people do that gay people can't, and how does this tie into the critical definition of marriage.


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Irvine, you mentioned the need to limit government’s role in marriage – how will that work for you?
i was pointing out INDY's hypocrisy. he talks endlessly about how health care reduces choice by increasing government in our lives and thus becoming tyranny, but he's perfectly happy to create and maintain an entirely separate category of relationship. the small-government thing to do is simply to open up marriage to gay people.

and we get all these contortions from you two, and very little substance -- you still have not answered the question about what it is that straights can do that gays cannot.

i am sadly becoming forced to conclude that, for all your words, you have nothing to offer on this front other than the following: all straight relationships are better, in all ways and always, than all gay relationships.

so just come out and admit it?




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Child bearing may not be a requirement for heterosexual marriage but it IS, if not the whole point of, quite often the result of such a union. The same cannot, however, be said of homosexual unions and no amount of wishful thinking would make THAT so.
i know some lesbians who are about to bear a child. many gays adopt. many gays have children from previous relationships.

all those gays have more children than martha, and yet she's married.

you've also glossed over the infertile, the post-menopausal, those who marry late in life, and those who choose to have no children.

by your own logic, INDY, we need to divorce them all, post-haste.



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I don't say that to be mean or to suggest that the inability to reproduce in any way speaks to the individual worth of a person. It most certainly does not, but it does illustrate why many feel gender -- "male" and "female," "husband" and "wife" -- is not insignificant in defining marriage the way ethnicity, religious creed, et cetera, ultimately is.
but you just did?

do you at least now realize that these traditional understandings of how gender functions in a marriage is now incomplete to address reality? while childbearing often goes with marriage (just as people often marry people from the same race), it is not a requirement of marriage.

and, further, gays and lesbians can and do have children. why should those children be deprived of married parents?

can we please think of the children?


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Now I know the meme that says gender roles are interchangeable goes all but unchallenged in feminist theory, postmodern philosophy, pop culture and in liberal circles today, but the majority of Americans remain very skeptical of the idea.
do you even know what postmodernism means?

yes, at the ballot box, you are right. it is something new, and the pace of progress has been swift, but not perfect. but considering this was unimaginable 10 years ago, and considering it was almost 10 years from Selma to the Civil Rights Act, and considering that there's no way that the voters of Alabama would have voted to desegregate the University, do you really think that mob rule over minority rights -- itself hugely suspect, and the reason why we have courts to begin with -- is a particularly admirable model to hold up as some sort of validation of your position?
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:00 AM   #108
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don't be ridiculous. so come down off the cross AEON, we need the wood.
Funny. But I am serious. I think removing government incentives for marriage is truly the best compromise. I do not need the state to tell me I am married to my wife. If incentives are removed, there is no legal, secular reason to continue this debate.

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society loves children, loves marriage, loves it when people get married, and yes, the government should absolutely encourage this kind of behavior.
I am not a behavior!

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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
it just should include gay people as well. in fact, gay people can procreate. you've heard of sperm donation and surrogacy? you've heard of adoption? a gay marriage blends families as well as any straight marriage.
Like you just said, you can procreate and raise healthy families on your own - as can I - there is no need to have the government encourage/discourage through incentives/penalties.

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again, and no one's been able to answer this for me, what can straight people do that gay people can't, and how does this tie into the critical definition of marriage.
People can point to Natural Law, religion, biology, traditions - some accept this, others do not. In the end, I am now convinced that my definition, the one I share with Barack Obama and others, ultimately comes from a spiritual source that is best left outside of the government's interference. It does not need incentives any more than it needs protection. It is a responsibility I have to God - and this should not be legislated.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:13 AM   #109
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Irvine and melon offend you that much?
Not at all. They are usually polite, if passionate. Given the topic and their admitted homosexuality, I can understand their passion.

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You're willing to eliminate the option of courthouse marriages for straight couples who don't need a church for a "legal affirmation of their romance" just so they can't get hitched to their beloveds?
Legal affirmation of romance is not necessary when there are no legal incentives. However, if any two (or more) people want to draft any sort of "contract" regarding property, inheritance, money...etc. - they a free to do so and the court system can and should be used to protect these contracts just like any other contract between people.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:17 AM   #110
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Funny. But I am serious. I think removing government incentives for marriage is truly the best compromise. I do not need the state to tell me I am married to my wife. If incentives are removed, there is no legal, secular reason to continue this debate.
Sorry, but in a way this sounds like a selfish child that didn't get his way so he's taking his stuff and going home.

So how do you propose the state handles your relationship? Hospital visits, taxes, etc...
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:19 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Legal affirmation of romance is not necessary when there are no legal incentives. However, if any two (or more) people want to draft any sort of "contract" regarding property, inheritance, money...etc. - they a free to do so and the court system can and should be used to protect these contracts just like any other contract between people.
I'm glad not everyone is as selfish as you, for this is just ridiculous.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:23 AM   #112
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So how do you propose the state handles your relationship? Hospital visits, taxes, etc...
Hospital visits should be handled by the individual hospitals and/or the agencies that regulate them. Concerning taxes, I am in favor of a flat tax across the board for every adult - married or not married.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:25 AM   #113
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However, if any two (or more) people want to draft any sort of "contract" regarding property, inheritance, money...etc. - they a free to do so and the court system can and should be used to protect these contracts just like any other contract between people.
Roll over and tell the state of Virginia the news!
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:26 AM   #114
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If incentives are removed, there is no legal, secular reason to continue this debate.
Because that's all you got. Get rid marriage so the homos can't do it. Nice.

After dozens of pages and thousands of words, and many still-unanswered questions, you've decided to stop the debate so you can remain unchallenged.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:37 AM   #115
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Get rid marriage so the homos can't do it.
Rather rude - wouldn't you say? Just to clarify - I am not proposing ending marriage, just leaving it to private entities to define what it is, how it is performed, and who (and how many) it can include.

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After dozens of pages and thousands of words, and many still-unanswered questions, you've decided to stop the debate so you can remain unchallenged.
We can still have the Biblical definition discussion/debate (which is certainly a challenge), but others asked that this thread remain as secular as possible.My decision to halt government incentives for marriage is a secular/legal one.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:39 AM   #116
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Funny. But I am serious. I think removing government incentives for marriage is truly the best compromise. I do not need the state to tell me I am married to my wife. If incentives are removed, there is no legal, secular reason to continue this debate.

i see. so we should burn down the house to save it?

you realize how insane this sounds, and how this is the most homophobic position you've yet



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I am not a behavior!

where did i talk about "heterosexual behavior" in regards to fucking? you're the one who has described "homosexual behavior" as being little more than sexual fulfillment between adults.



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Like you just said, you can procreate and raise healthy families on your own - as can I - there is no need to have the government encourage/discourage through incentives/penalties.
if that's your position, fine. i find it surprising that same-sex marriage led you to this conclusion.



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People can point to Natural Law, religion, biology, traditions - some accept this, others do not. In the end, I am now convinced that my definition, the one I share with Barack Obama and others, ultimately comes from a spiritual source that is best left outside of the government's interference. It does not need incentives any more than it needs protection. It is a responsibility I have to God - and this should not be legislated.


fortunately, most people don't agree with you.

you seem to have been backed into a corner defending an indefensible position and are shutting down. that's fine. i think you should start by refusing your tax breaks and getting separate medical insurance.
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:42 AM   #117
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Hospital visits should be handled by the individual hospitals and/or the agencies that regulate them. Concerning taxes, I am in favor of a flat tax across the board for every adult - married or not married.


thank goodness the hospital i was in allowed Memphis to come straight up to the ICU to see me. under your system, had we been in a less gay friendly area, he could have been stopped at the door at the whim of whatever hospital. gosh, and maybe a Catholic hospital could have refused to let him on their grounds altogether, since that would have been consistent with doctrine, no?
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:43 AM   #118
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What the hell are you talking about? Where did I threaten you?


i think he's referring to the list of Prop 8 donors that was circulated after the event.

because it was terrifying, releasing public information like that. some businesses could have been boycotted! that's gay terrorism!
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Old 11-16-2009, 10:45 AM   #119
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Hospital visits should be handled by the individual hospitals and/or the agencies that regulate them. Concerning taxes, I am in favor of a flat tax across the board for every adult - married or not married.
What you are proposing is really rather exciting for my profession since lawyers are gonna have LOTS of contract work to do, drafting of wills and POAs, nevermind all the obvious litigation that will arise as a result of private entities like hospitals setting rules which will often be contrary to human rights laws and so on.

The flat tax is a good way to punish the lower and middle classes so it doesn't surprise me that somebody on the right would propose such an idea.

Your system is totally unworkable and completely unrealistic.
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Old 11-16-2009, 11:24 AM   #120
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What you are proposing is really rather exciting for my profession since lawyers are gonna have LOTS of contract work to do...
Do lawyers handle prenuptials? Divorce? Wills? I imagine with a divorce rate above 50 percent, you haven't lacked clients.

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The flat tax is a good way to punish the lower and middle classes so it doesn't surprise me that somebody on the right would propose such an idea.
That's another debate. However, the removal of marriage tax incentives can be removed under the current tax code.
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