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Old 11-30-2009, 09:31 PM   #841
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Did you read the speech? Obama talked about the need for fathers, Irvine. Fathers.
Obama's point is clear and it's sailing over your head. He's trying to encourage biological parents not to neglect their children, not tell gays they can't raise kids.
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What's not in dispute based on the statistics posted, from such controversial sources as the US Census Bureau and the Dept of Human Health and Services, is that kids do better with their fathers in the home.
As opposed to having no father in the home and just a mother.
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Old 11-30-2009, 09:36 PM   #842
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Two fathers must be better than one
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:47 PM   #843
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Did you read the speech? Obama talked about the need for fathers, Irvine. Fathers.
yes, fathers with children. they need to pay attention to them. nowhere -- and i listed every last adjective for you in that speech, nathan -- did we find any qualities that couldn't also be shared by a woman.

we have a problem specifically with heterosexual men who father children and then neglect them. this more often than not afflicts poorer families. Obama addressed THAT, not the essential goodness of men and their indispensability PREDICATED upon their gender.

two mothers and/or two fathers have been proved, again and again, to be every bit as good as a mother and a father, and in fact, the newest evidence shows that two mothers just might be an even more optimal environment in which to raise children (though i'd argue that it's more that gay couples have to spend considerable money and jump through hoops to have children, and so they tend to take their jobs *very* seriously, as opposed to heterosexual men, apparently).

so, nathan, while a child might need HIS father, a boy with two mothers does not need the sperm donor nor is he disadvantaged by not having a male parent when he in fact has two good female parents.



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Biology is a concoction? *shrug*

the essential timelessness you're ascribing to traditional gender roles certainly is.



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As I said earlier, gender roles shift and change over time. What's not in dispute based on the statistics posted, from such controversial sources as the US Census Bureau and the Dept of Human Health and Services, is that kids do better with their fathers in the home.


good. go pick on the straight men. they're who you have the issue with.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:49 PM   #844
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When studies corroborate evidence across racial and socio-economic lines, the need for fathers then isn't merely isolated to African-American urban youth (as Irvine implied a few pages back when he said that Obama was simply addressing the African-American community).


wow, how intellectually dishonest of you. i've come to expect more from you, nathan.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:50 PM   #845
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Since marriage is the context in which the majority of children are still born, and since the statistical evidence shows that kids need fathers, I'd say it does...


... and here we go. sorry i didn't multi-quote all this.

yes, perhaps heterosexual men shouldn't be allowed to get married, or father children since they're too irresponsible to be trusted with them.

that's the core of your argument.

i guess my kids are going to be really, really awesome, since they'll have two dads.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:52 PM   #846
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You should have paid attention to the next quote:

"A family structure index - a composite index based on the annual rate of children involved in divorce and the percentage of families with children present that are female-headed - is a strong predictor of suicide among young adult and adolescent white males."
"Trends in White Male Adolescent, Young-Adult, and Elderly Suicide: Are There Common Underlying Structural Factors?" Social Science Research 23 (1994)

When studies corroborate evidence across racial and socio-economic lines, the need for fathers then isn't merely isolated to African-American urban youth (as Irvine implied a few pages back when he said that Obama was simply addressing the African-American community).

Interestingly, the statistics for girls without a father are also interesting:

Girls without a father in their life are two and a half times as likely to get pregnant and 53 percent more likely to commit suicide. Boys without a father in their life are 63 percent more likely to run away and 37 percent more likely to abuse drugs. Both girls and boys without a father are twice as likely to drop out of high school, twice as likely to end up in jail, and nearly four times as likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems.

Source: U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services press release, "HHS Launches 'Be Their Dad' Parental Responsibility Campaign" (March 26, 1999)
You've sucked me back in one more time, but seriously, this is it.

You honestly don't get it. That does not tell me one single thing about how the studies have handled third variables, or even if they have, because many don't. Nothing. I'm tired of repeating this over and over again.

And again, the overwhelming point you seem unwilling to address - none of this matters anyway in the context of this discussion, for the reasons I and several others have already mentioned.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:03 PM   #847
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Actually, it's interesting -- in 1983, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services found that 60% of child abusers were women with sole custody. I realize that child abuse and the specific case of sexual abuse are different, but still -- I wasn't aware of that. (Things may have changed since those days.)
Well obviously since more women had custody of children back there than men; that statistic alone drove it to 60% in all likelihood.

Your constant focus on fathers simply points out a failure on the part of straight men. Perhaps that's something you should be addressing totally separately from whether my old roommate and her girlfriend should be allowed to marry.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:06 PM   #848
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You've sucked me back in one more time, but seriously, this is it.

You honestly don't get it. That does not tell me one single thing about how the studies have handled third variables, or even if they have, because many don't. Nothing. I'm tired of repeating this over and over again.

And again, the overwhelming point you seem unwilling to address - none of this matters anyway in the context of this discussion, for the reasons I and several others have already mentioned.
In summary: you're wrong in thinking any of this discussion of children matters, and even if it did, you're wrong about that too.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:18 PM   #849
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Since marriage is the context in which the majority of children are still born, and since the statistical evidence shows that kids need fathers, I'd say it does...

So what about all those terrible single mothers, depriving their poor children of a father? Gonna vote against those too?

Or maybe, as others have said, it's the straight guys who are fucking it up for everyone else.

Wouldn't be the first time....
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:20 PM   #850
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So what about all those terrible single mothers, depriving their poor children of a father? Gonna vote against those too?
I don't know how these women could just let their man walk away like that. Surely we can legislate against their inflammatory actions.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:21 PM   #851
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I don't know how these women could just let their man walk away like that. Surely we can legislate against their inflammatory actions.

We really should. It's usually all the bitch's fault anyway.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:34 PM   #852
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So what about all those terrible single mothers, depriving their poor children of a father? Gonna vote against those too?


i think it is clear that women who leave men -- for whatever reason -- are guilty of child abuse by depriving them of a father.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:35 PM   #853
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It seems to be so.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:39 PM   #854
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so i know i'm late to the party, but i'm just watching the first season of Mad Men, and i couldn't be happier that gender roles have evolved along with our knowledge of smoking, children playing in plastic bags, and seat belts.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:43 PM   #855
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Speak it, brutha.

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