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Old 11-29-2009, 11:40 PM   #811
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I'm heterosexual and I would like to have kids some day, so back of the line for both of you.
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Old 11-29-2009, 11:47 PM   #812
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Dammit!
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:16 AM   #813
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Originally Posted by martha View Post
Don't you have a separate line somewhere?


but it's equally long.
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:22 AM   #814
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Originally Posted by martha View Post
You're not willing to "let" it happen, except when you're ready.


And the best part, nathan? You never answered my question.
Actually, I did -- I said it didn't apply, at least to the issue I raised. Am I obligated to answer the question "why doesn't George play football" in a conversation about eating meat?

In any event, your situation reinforces my point about gender. For most people, the process of getting married revolves around making babies (at the very least creating the possibility), which -- for most -- is somewhat impossible biologically speaking without someone from the opposite sex. (When IVF is $15K a pop and adoption easily costs that much, most people still make them the old-fashioned way.) But even when you take reproduction out of the equation, the differences between the sexes still clearly matter and are recognized as having value, in and of themselves. So in a society which still legally defines marriage as one man/one woman, your marriage is still valid.
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:28 AM   #815
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
what is it about his gender -- and gender only -- that would be impossible to be filled by two women?
Besides his role in conception? (Which is kind of the starting point for fatherhood, for most people.)

Or his role in effectively raising sons, per the statistics I cited?

Or his role in modeling opposite-gender relationships for both sons and daughters?

Just off the top of my head.

Irvine, Martha, and the rest -- do you believe that there are differences between genders?

Maybe we should start there.
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Old 11-30-2009, 06:29 AM   #816
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For most people, the process of getting married revolves around making babies
It can, but is not defined by!!!

Even the most ignorant among us understand this.

So why are you trying to use it to define marriage now?

I can only think of one answer.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:03 AM   #817
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Irvine, Martha, and the rest -- do you believe that there are differences between genders?

I do, and as a heterosexual, I enjoy those differences. But I don't think those differences need to be the basis of discriminatory law.
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:04 AM   #818
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So in a society which still legally defines marriage as one man/one woman, your marriage is still valid.
I win!!

I got answered!
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Old 11-30-2009, 08:36 AM   #819
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post

Or his role in effectively raising sons, per the statistics I cited?


Or his role in modeling opposite-gender relationships for both sons and daughters?

Just off the top of my head.
These statistics you keep referring to are practically meaningless for a couple of reasons.

1) You keep mentioning psychology and sociology as though you know what you're talking about. But one of the first things taught in either discipline is that correlation does not equal causation. I've given you examples of things that make those correlations spurious, and yet you keep insisting on using them.

I've read studies - not magazine articles, not dry statistics on a chart open to interpretation, but actual peer reviewed studies and academic papers that say that the key thing in helping a child through family break up is to have at least one parent consistently there for the child, and involved, even if that means setting aside their newfound ability to date and socialize for a while. The child needs a parent to be present and plugged in to parenting rather than building a new social life for themselves. Couple the failure to do this with the economics of most situations, and you have a situation much more complex than just having an absent father.

2) Say for the sake of argument that your "statistics" are completely accurate and that is the sole cause of all the harm to children that you say it is. It still doesn't matter. As long as there are allowed to be heterosexual parents of one gender heading families, then the same should be extended to homosexual families. Unless you're prepared to go to every single parent family and remove their kids, you have no argument here.
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:35 AM   #820
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There are plenty of kids who have fathers physically present in the home but are still essentially fatherless-due to their fathers being emotionally unavailable or just not present in any way for other reasons-due to work obligations and/or choices of their own making. Just checked out in many cases, leaving the woman to essentially be a single parent. Where does that fall in these statistics? Is it just father there, check? I'd rather have any gay or lesbian parent than a straight one who is checked out. It's about the kind of parent, not the gender or sexual orientation.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:43 AM   #821
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
Besides his role in conception? (Which is kind of the starting point for fatherhood, for most people.)

this is not parenting.


Quote:
Or his role in effectively raising sons, per the statistics I cited?

per the statistics? i'll just point you back to VP's posts. again, nothing exclusive to gender -- just that fathers are important to their families, especially to poor families. we agree that straight men have a lot of work to do.


Quote:
Or his role in modeling opposite-gender relationships for both sons and daughters?
is this something mom can't do?


Quote:
Just off the top of my head.
keep digging.



Quote:
Irvine, Martha, and the rest -- do you believe that there are differences between genders?

of course. but i see no gender difference that makes successful marriages or parenting impossible for same-sex couples, nor do i believe that gender difference confers a superior status onto a heterosexual couple. many of the practical differences in gender -- the ability to actually support a family, women as actual property -- have been done away with for decades by feminism and straight people themselves.

and that's what the original questions were about. this pie-in-the-sky, fast-and-loose discussions of "sociology" -- which you bring up in vague terms and when convenient -- as well as the clear misreading of both Obama (a politician) and that Newsweek article draws your sidestepping conclusions -- that have yet to answer the actual questions, which is whether or not a gender difference is absolutely indispensable from marriage and family -- into a rather suspicious light.
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Old 11-30-2009, 11:50 AM   #822
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
but i see no gender difference that makes successful marriages or parenting impossible for same-sex couples, nor do i believe that gender difference confers a superior status onto a heterosexual couple. many of the practical differences in gender -- the ability to actually support a family, women as actual property -- have been done away with for decades by feminism and straight people themselves.
I agree. And men certainly have no inherent inability to love and parent their children as well as women can. Straight or gay. The only inequalities exist in their socialization or in their own minds or their own choices and in outdated societal norms.

The physical act of conceiving a baby is NOT the beginning of fatherhood. The beginning of fatherhood is love and commitment to be a father. How it happens is irrelevant-and certainly irrelevant to that love and commitment. That act can happen and then gee, there's no love or commitment there. Or the act doesn't happen, well not in the "traditional" way (I hate to use that word but just for lack of a better one off the top of my head...and w/ the technology we have what is that now anyway? Technology doesn't make it any less valid.). But yet there can be the best love and commitment imaginable.
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:24 PM   #823
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Originally Posted by VintagePunk View Post
You keep mentioning psychology and sociology as though you know what you're talking about.
And I've pointed this out, specifically. Nathan, your understanding of the psychology of children is really, really inaccurate.
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:54 PM   #824
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More statistics of the effectiveness of fatherlessness:

In a longitudinal study of 1,197 fourth-grade students, researchers observed "greater levels of aggression in boys from mother-only households than from boys in mother-father households."
Source: N. Vaden-Kierman, N. Ialongo, J. Pearson, and S. Kellam, "Household Family Structure and Children's Aggressive Behavior: A Longitudinal Study of Urban Elementary School Children," Journal of Abnormal Child Psychology 23, no. 5 (1995).

"A family structure index - a composite index based on the annual rate of children involved in divorce and the percentage of families with children present that are female-headed - is a strong predictor of suicide among young adult and adolescent white males." Source: Patricia L. McCall and Kenneth C. Land, "Trends in White Male Adolescent, Young-Adult, and Elderly Suicide: Are Ther Common Underlying Structural Factors?" Social Science Research 23 (1994): 57-81

"Fatherless children are at dramatically greater risk of suicide." Source: U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, National Center for Health Statistics, Survey on Child Health, Washington, D.C., 1993.

"...the absence of the father in the home affects significantly the behavior of adolescents and results in the greater use of alcohol and marijuana."
Source: Deane Scott Berman, "Risk Factors Leading to Adolescent Substance Abuse," Adolescence 30 (1995)

"Father hunger" often afflicts boys age one and two whose fathers are suddenly and permanently absent. Sleep disturbances, such as trouble falling asleep, nightmares, and night terrors frequently begin within one to three months after the father leaves home.
Source: Alfred A. Messer, "Boys Father Hunger: The Missing Father Syndrome," Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality, January 1989.

"The economic consequences of a [father's] absence are often accompanied by psychological consequences, which include higher-than-average levels of youth suicide, low intellectual and education performance, and higher-than-average rates of mental illness, violence and drug use."
Source: William Galston, Elaine Kamarck. Progressive Policy Institute. 1993

Kids who exhibited violent behavior at school were 11 times as likely not to live with their fathers and six times as likely to have parents who were not married. Boys from families with absent fathers are at higher risk for violent behavior than boys from intact families.
Source: J.L. Sheline (et al.), "Risk Factors...", American Journal of Public Health, No. 84. 1994

Fatherless children -- kids living in homes without a stepfather or without contact with their biological father -- are twice as likely to drop out of school.
Source: U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, Survey on Child Health. (1993)

63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes.
[U. S. D.H.H.S. Bureau of the Census]

90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes.
85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes.
[Center for Disease Control]

80% of rapists motivated with displaced anger come from fatherless homes.
[Criminal Justice and Behavior, Vol. 14 p. 403-26]

71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes.
[National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools]

70% of juveniles in state operated institutions come from fatherless homes
[U.S. Dept. of Justice, Special Report, Sept., 1988]

85% of all youths sitting in prisons grew up in a fatherless home.
[Fulton County Georgia Jail Populations and Texas Dept. of Corrections, 1992]

85% of all children that exhibit behavioral disorders come from fatherless homes (Source: Center for Disease Control)
90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)
71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes (Source: National Principals Association Report on the State of High Schools.)
75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes (Source: Rainbows for all God's Children.)
63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes (Source: U.S. D.H.H.S., Bureau of the Census)

Quote:
the clear misreading of both Obama (a politician)
"Clear misreasing". Of a Father's Day speech. About fatherhood. To the nation. With statistics about the effects that fatherlessness has on boys. Maybe you should go back and count Obama's references to fathers. It would actually be a clear misreading to pretend that he WASN'T talking about the importance of fathers in the lives of children.

I understand the dangers of too easily equating causation and correlation. I'm not necessarily saying that correlation proves causation either. However, one can assemble enough statistical evidence to draw certain conclusions. It's pretty clear from the statistics above, in addition to those quoted in Newsweek, in addition to those cited by President Obama, that the role of fathers is crucial. Those who underestimate that role, do so in the face of reality...
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Old 11-30-2009, 04:57 PM   #825
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I understand the dangers of too easily equating causation and correlation. I'm not necessarily saying that correlation proves causation either. However, one can assemble enough statistical evidence to draw certain conclusions. It's pretty clear from the statistics above, in addition to those quoted in Newsweek, in addition to those cited by President Obama, that the role of fathers cannot be underestimated. Those who do, do so in the face of reality...
So what are we going to do about what clearly presents an enormous menace to our children: STRAIGHT MEN?

Perhaps sterilization at birth would be an effective technique in ensuring that STRAIGHT MEN aren't sowing their seeds, ruining their children's lives and placing enormous social and financial burdens on womenfolk.

What this has to do with the idea that two men or women should be allowed to marry is beyond me (still).
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