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Old 11-25-2009, 03:21 PM   #751
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erm, BVS was adopted.
That's great. Many adoptive parents still have difficulty bonding with their kids, particularly those who adopt later-age kids, as several of my friends have done.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:23 PM   #752
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That's great. Many adoptive parents still have difficulty bonding with their kids, particularly those who adopt later-age kids, as several of my friends have done.


and as we know, your experience trumps all?
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:24 PM   #753
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Did you even read the rest of my post? Or does being called out as a hypocrite hit too close to home?
To be honest, I wasn't really sure what point you were making.

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I am adopted and have been surrounded by those who are and have adopted all my life.
That's great. I have friends who have adopted and have really struggled, particularly since they chose to adopt kids who were older. It certainly doesn't negate your experience, but it doesn't negate my friends' either. It's certainly not worth calling my friends experience "complete and utter bullshit," as you did.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:24 PM   #754
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and as we know, your experience trumps all?
No, but it sure doesn't make it less valid.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:25 PM   #755
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That's great. I have friends who have adopted and have really struggled, particularly since they chose to adopt kids who were older. It certainly doesn't negate your experience, but it doesn't negate my friends' either. It's certainly not worth calling what my friends went through "complete and utter bullshit," as you did.


but it does negate your equally totalizing claims about what is and what isn't best for children.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:25 PM   #756
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you're the STING of gay marriage.
No, I'm the STING of gender essentialism. There's a difference.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:25 PM   #757
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No, but it sure doesn't make it less valid.


not less valid, but surely incomplete and not nearly enough to make sweeping statements about biology, sociology, and history.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:26 PM   #758
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but it does negate your equally totalizing claims about what is and what isn't best for children.
Really? How so? When talking about adoption, I wasn't talking about the experience of the child -- I was talking about what parents go through.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:26 PM   #759
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No, I'm the STING of gender essentialism. There's a difference.


i will concede this point.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:26 PM   #760
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Seriously?

"It's up to us - as fathers and parents - to instill this ethic of excellence in our children. It's up to us to say to our daughters, don't ever let images on TV tell you what you are worth, because I expect you to dream without limit and reach for those goals. It's up to us to tell our sons, those songs on the radio may glorify violence, but in my house we live glory to achievement, self respect, and hard work. It's up to us to set these high expectations. And that means meeting those expectations ourselves. That means setting examples of excellence in our own lives."

You're right. It was just about dollars and cents.
And mothers can't tell their children these things? These are the specific domain of fathers? If that were the case, my kid would have been screwed.

Look, Obama's speech was great and all, but it's hardly the definitive, statistical mine that you're making it out to be. I just reread the speech, and here is the only part where he quotes statistics:

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We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled — doubled — since we were children. We know the statistics — that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and 20 times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home or become teenage parents themselves.
and there's not one thing in there that can't be explained by the mother being adversely impacted economically and emotionally, and that impact affecting her ability to parent effectively.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:27 PM   #761
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not less valid, but surely incomplete and not nearly enough to make sweeping statements about biology, sociology, and history.
Biology, sociology and history stand on their own. They don't need my help. Except when people start making arguments in the face of them.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:28 PM   #762
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Look, Obama's speech was great and all, but it's hardly the definitive, statistical mine that you're making it out to be. I just reread the speech, and ... and there's not one thing in there that can't be explained by the mother being adversely impacted economically and emotionally, and that impact affecting her ability to parent effectively.
Only if you assume that the only role a father plays is strictly a financial one. Which is pretty much thrown out by the Newsweek article.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:28 PM   #763
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Biology, sociology and history stand on their own. They don't need my help. Except when people start making arguments in the face of them.


i see -- so biology, sociology, and history are somehow incompatible with my assertion that there are many forms of successful families?

wow.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:29 PM   #764
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Only if you assume that the only role a father plays is strictly a financial one. Which is pretty much thrown out by the Newsweek article.


what role can ONLY a father play.

again, this has been the question from the beginning.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:32 PM   #765
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i see -- so biology, sociology, and history are somehow incompatible with my assertion that there are many forms of successful families?
I've never disputed that there are other forms of families. But saying that both a father and a mother is irrelevant to the family flies in the face of biology, sociology and history. Which was your point, which I disputed.

Throughout history, the role of the father has shifted, and it will probably shift further still. But there's a big difference between saying that fathers have a changing, dynamic role in the family, and saying that fathers aren't necessary to the family.

And with that, I really must be going...
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