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Old 11-25-2009, 02:54 PM   #736
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Do they need fathers or father figures?
Newsweek's statistics were clear. The President's statistics were clear. Boys need fathers. In a vacuum, others will step in, but at great cost, as the article makes clear. Mentors should not have to compensate for the lack of a father.
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Old 11-25-2009, 02:57 PM   #737
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What else do fatherless poor boys have in common? Mothers who are struggling, overworked, constantly stressed, and for whom proper parenting often falls by the wayside.

So, which is more likely to adversely affect a boy, lacking a father in the family, or having the mother who is present not be an effective parent due to the many economic stresses she faces?
Both/and. The latter is a direct connection to (and result of) the former.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:02 PM   #738
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I don't need to. I just need to point out the critical role that fathers play in their sons lives. I'm willing to bet there's even more out there about the role that mothers' play in their daughters. And we've yet to talk about the value that mothers play in their son's lives, and fathers in their daughters'...

great. now we both know that you've never answered my question because you "don't need to."
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:03 PM   #739
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Who gives a crap what I believe? The statistics don't lie, and are far more compelling -- for more and more couples, marriage comes as a precursor to (or a result of) having kids.
It matters because it gets down to the core of your argument, which is, THERE IS NONE. It changes with each post.

I've documented it several times over, you, Diamond, INDY, AEON, have all changed your argument from time to time in order to counteract the specific points, but contradicting any core beliefs. Which leads me believe this has nothing to do with any kind of principal for any of you.

You ask who cares what you believe? So if it's not about what you believe then it's not about some type of "sanctity of marriage". And if you believe in this cohabitation argument "increasingly defining mark" then you admit that marriage is a constantly evolving definition. So this shatters all of your previous supposed beliefs.

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Additionally, if you know any adoptive parents, you'd know that one of the things they consistently struggle with in the early going is that distinctive lack of bond, particularly mothers. It can certainly be overcome, but it takes time, and it's not easy.
Complete and utter bullshit!!!
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:06 PM   #740
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Complete and utter bullshit!!!


your experience, and Varitek's, do not apply here. what matters is Newsweek, Freud, and Obama.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:07 PM   #741
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Both/and. The latter is a direct connection to (and result of) the former.
You need to get your variables straight, here. Assume that the effect of being fatherless on the child is one equation, and the effect of the absent father on the mother, which then impacts the son is another equation. What I'm saying is that I've read several studies saying that the latter equation is more damaging to the child than the former. It's not the absence of the father that's most damaging, it's the way his absence impacts the mother economically and emotionally that causes greater damage.


But...red herring.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:10 PM   #742
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great. now we both know that you've never answered my question because you "don't need to."
I'm not talking about lesbian moms, or about their sons. I'm talking about the need for fathers. Which was a question you asked.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:10 PM   #743
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It's not the absence of the father that's most damaging, it's the way his absence impacts the mother economically and emotionally that causes greater damage.


which constitutes the bulk of what Obama was saying.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:13 PM   #744
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I'm not talking about lesbian moms, or about their sons. I'm talking about the need for fathers. Which was a question you asked.


no -- the question i asked was what specific parenting techniques can a father perform that a mother never, ever could. i.e., if Steve and Martha were to become parents, what could Steve, and only Steve, do, that Martha never, ever could?

you said that fathers can't have babies. fine. but that's not parenting.

i absolutely agree that children are harmed by absent fathers. i agree that a mother's ability to parent often goes down with an absent father. i agree that children do best -- usually -- with two parents (assuming that two parents are fit to parent).

however, none of this is tied to essential gender characteristics.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:13 PM   #745
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You ask who cares what you believe?
The statistics don't lie, BVS. Statistically speaking, cohabitation is on the rise. Statistically speaking, people are having children later in life. Statistically speaking, the primary reason more and more people are getting married is not because of sexual activity, or even because of a relationship. It's all to do with settling down. We don't need to discuss my beliefs on the matter; we can discuss the facts. It's far more relevant, don't you think?

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Complete and utter bullshit!!!
Would you like the names and telephone numbers of my friends who adopted and experienced this? They might be able to give you some life experience.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:15 PM   #746
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which constitutes the bulk of what Obama was saying.
Seriously?

"It's up to us - as fathers and parents - to instill this ethic of excellence in our children. It's up to us to say to our daughters, don't ever let images on TV tell you what you are worth, because I expect you to dream without limit and reach for those goals. It's up to us to tell our sons, those songs on the radio may glorify violence, but in my house we live glory to achievement, self respect, and hard work. It's up to us to set these high expectations. And that means meeting those expectations ourselves. That means setting examples of excellence in our own lives."

You're right. It was just about dollars and cents.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:16 PM   #747
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no -- the question i asked was what specific parenting techniques can a father perform that a mother never, ever could. i.e., if Steve and Martha were to become parents, what could Steve, and only Steve, do, that Martha never, ever could?
And the statistics have revealed the role that fathers play -- particularly with boys.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:18 PM   #748
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Would you like the names and telephone numbers of my friends who adopted and experienced this? They might be able to give you some life experience.


erm, BVS was adopted.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:19 PM   #749
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And the statistics have revealed the role that fathers play -- particularly with boys.


you're the STING of gay marriage.
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Old 11-25-2009, 03:19 PM   #750
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The statistics don't lie, BVS. Statistically speaking, cohabitation is on the rise. Statistically speaking, people are having children later in life. Statistically speaking, the primary reason more and more people are getting married is not because of sexual activity, or even because of a relationship. It's all to do with settling down. We don't need to discuss my beliefs on the matter; we can discuss the facts. It's far more relevant, don't you think?
Did you even read the rest of my post? Or does being called out as a hypocrite hit too close to home?


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Would you like the names and telephone numbers of my friends who adopted and experienced this? They might be able to give you some life experience.
Life experience? Wow...

I am adopted and have been surrounded by those who are and have adopted all my life.

I'll refrain from posting some of the things that I really wanted to type.
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