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Old 11-25-2009, 10:54 AM   #691
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Some would argue that kids do in fact suffer in this situation as well.

I know there are exceptions. In discussions like this, I'm someone that enjoys searching for the patterns for the way things ought to be (like Plato's Realm of Ideas and Forms).

One of the unfortunate aspects of Postmodernism is that debate essentially is impossible - because in order to have a healthy debate - we must agree on a "common language" - a good Postmodernist loves to destroy the meaning of - well - just about anything. A is not A
So, what, should we just take all the kids away?
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Old 11-25-2009, 10:55 AM   #692
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Can one have reasons for their faith? If so, they are not opposites.


reason, as a verb, is what i was talking about.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:02 AM   #693
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So what should a man do if his wife/partner dies and he's left to raise a daughter alone? Give her up for adoption? All of this silliness that men can't deal with female "issues" is one of the reasons that some parenting is messed up in the first place. I thought we were beyond that. That's part of the job of father-other than that I guess we should just allow gender selection for babies.

Girls are looking to their fathers in these areas-it's one of the things that is key to shaping their self images and their relationships with males. To their fathers gay or straight.

I'm kind wondering now if my son, a single father of a 10 month old baby girl, should just forget all of this taking responsibility stuff and simply give her to me or her other grandmother so we can properly raise her. He's already asking for advice on her first period and other female issues so he'll be prepared when it happens but who is he kidding, right?
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:22 AM   #694
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reason, as a verb, is what i was talking about.
In my view, faith is not a blind leap into darkness, but a leap from the darkness into the light - and it takes reason to recognize the light as light.

When it comes to faith, Renaissance and Enlightenment philosophy identified there are three different aspects. The first aspect is fiducia - and this is the "supernatural" faith that Christians believe is the work of the Holy Spirit. Unfortunately, this is where many Christians stop - and where the critics such as A_Wanderer attack.

The second aspect of faith is noticia - which simply means the faith has content, or information regarding it (for Christians, this would be the Gospels and the New Testament letters - for secular humanists maybe the writings of Paul Kurtz).

The third aspect of faith is assensus - which is intellectual assent. This is similar to the question, "Do I believe that the Sun is mostly comprised of Hydrogen and Helium?" It is not a question that involves placing your personal trust in the answer, it simply means you use your mind to accept/reject the proposition based available evidence/information.

This is why I say that faith and reason are not opposites. Everyone at some point exercises the noticia and assensus aspects of faith.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:28 AM   #695
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Light, dark, whatever. It's a blind leap nonetheless. Your "content" is a book some guys just wrote one day and claimed God was involved with, and I don't even know how the sun's composition influences your belief in God.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:31 AM   #696
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and I don't even know how the sun's composition influences your belief in God.
The point is - reason and thinking are involved. You can disagree with the conclusion, but you cannot truthfully assert that all faith is absent of reason.
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Old 11-25-2009, 11:50 AM   #697
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So, what, should we just take all the kids away?
Not necessarily. Again, we are in the realm of what is preferable over what is acceptable.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:11 PM   #698
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Not necessarily. Again, we are in the realm of what is preferable over what is acceptable.
Assuming the preferable vs the acceptable argument is valid (which it's not), it still has no impact on the gay marriage issue, since "acceptable" over "preferable" parenting is allowed in the straight community.


Also, to address comments made last night regarding psychological ramifications of this discussion, to take Baron-Cohen's statement regarding empathy and systemizing being hardwired into female and male brains, respectively, is a vast oversimplification, and furthermore, its application within this discussion doesn't fit. There are also problems with his theory of mind as it relates to autism anyway, but that's another discussion.

Regarding the psychological community being too politically correct to publish information to the contrary that homosexual parenting is equal to that of heterosexual parenting, I'd have to wonder how well the person making this statement knows the ins and outs of the psychological research community. Believe me, every researcher is looking to make their mark on the psychological world, and if they had valid data showing that homosexual parenting is inferior to heterosexual parenting, it would be out there. Controversial and valid findings are a way to get your name out there, and for many, if not most researchers, that's a very desirable thing.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:12 PM   #699
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For one, this isn't "postmodernism," and I'm knowing full well that you're banding this word around at this point as an insult.
One of the aspects of postmodernism is deconstructionism (arguing the definition of the word "is") which inevitably leads to moral relativism (all moral codes are equally correct) which eventually leads nihilism (because if we deconstruct the meaning of everything until all words are meaningless and we accept the proposition that morality is basically meaningless - then it logically follows that life itself is meaningless).

If you seriously look back through your posts, it certainly seems apparent this is where your propositions will eventually terminate.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:15 PM   #700
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Controversial and valid findings are a way to get your name out there, and for many, if not most researchers, that's a very desirable thing.
In quantum mechanics, I agree. In psychology or sociology, I'm not so sure.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:16 PM   #701
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In quantum mechanics, I agree. In psychology or sociology, I'm not so sure.
Well then, you're not familiar enough with the field.
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Old 11-25-2009, 12:51 PM   #702
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If you seriously look back through your posts, it certainly seems apparent this is where your propositions will eventually terminate.
And this conclusion is patently false. Re-read my arguments, and you'll notice not only substantial logical statements, but also that I cite objective results from professionals and their research that overwhelmingly support my position.

Frankly, it is modern conservatism that has devolved into a cacophony of "anything goes" relativism. Not that you necessarily share all of these beliefs, but if you feel that the world is 5,000 years old and think that God shares your prejudices and believe that Obama is a crypto-Muslim baby killing socialist, the odd thing is that we're supposed to elevate these unsubstantiated arguments to the same level of credibility as, say, all the archaeology that supports evolutionary theory, all the astronomy that supports a 13 billion year-old or so universe, and, yes, all the psychology and sociology that says that gays are just as well-adjusted and equal to their hetero counterparts.

I respect freedom of speech and diversity of opinion in the Western world, but I believe it would be intellectually dishonest to argue that all these nonsensical argumentum ad antiquitatem logical fallacies spewing from the Right have any sort of credence in light of the mountains of evidence to the contrary. Expecting ideals to actually stand up to the scrutiny of reason, logic, and science is the furthest from postmodern or relativist. Ironically enough, I do believe that "relativism" is precisely what's currently gripping the Right in their quest to remain relevant, and it's starting to become simultaneously scary and humorous.
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Old 11-25-2009, 01:20 PM   #703
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you're taking your experience and presenting it as the only true, authentic experience that can be had
Hardly. If you've noticed, I've qualified my statements by saying that my experience, while my own, is in fact shared by the vast majority. You're the one making empirical statements in the face of biological and sociological human development, and trying to pass it off as fact.

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how are your "friends" who've adopted, who've done IVF, any different from a gay couple who might do the same? the've clearly easily and casually discounted the biological role that gender distinctiveness and determinsim plays in conception since science has let them circumvent these rules.
Since most of them are opposite-sex couples, actually, they haven't. They still require the conception of an egg and a sperm. The women still give birth to babies.

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you have nothing to back any of this up.
Y'mean besides the apparently age-old history of biological and sociological human development?

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the evidence, as we've pointed to you repeatedly
Yes, you keep saying "lesbians are the BEST" over and over. And yet Obama's evidence was pretty compelling. Boys need fathers. Period. Science, history, and stastistics land on one side of this equation. What lands on yours?

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if biology is destiny as you assert, then why do we need to be taught how to be a boy or a girl?
Have you studied sociology at all?

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Freud was wrong, btw.
According to whom?

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you can speak for yourself, nathan, but it seems quite clear that you don't know many different kinds of families and appear to live in a fairly isolated clique.
FYM, this is the kettle. You're black.

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you assert -- and this has been your implication from the start -- that children are harmed by two mothers or two fathers.
Never said it, don't think it. I do think however -- and again, this is kind of borne out by science, human development, and the court of public opinion -- that boys need fathers. Read Obama's statistics again. Children -- particularly boys -- are dramatically harmed by the lack of a father in the house. Your attempt to relegate the crucial role both mothers and fathers play smacks of naivete.

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i suppose that's what happens when you substitute your own subjective experiences for objective reality.
When you're making arguments that fly in the face of objective reality and intent on redefining that reality, I guess it's up to us who have actually experienced the complete opposite to say something.

When I start "shitting out" kids out of my vag, I guess I can start to agree that gender doesn't mean something when it comes to parenting.

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in order to reinforce this "value" to these "core social structures" by implying that there's only one way to do things you're going to have to demonstrate how the alternative does harm to said "core social structures."
Actually, I've made no such claims, beyond referring to statistics that are readily available. On the other hand, you're the one making an argument that a new core social structure is better than the old one, by insisting that homes with two lesbians are the optimal situation for raising a family. So the burden of proof lies on you. Again, there's thousands of years of human development on one side. What's on the other?
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Old 11-25-2009, 01:22 PM   #704
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Nathan, I'm still waiting on yet another question you fail to answer...
Actually, I did answer your question, albeit in Irvine's thread. More and more people are simply cohabitating until they decide to have kids. Childbearing is increasingly the defining mark in switching from simply living together to getting married.
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Old 11-25-2009, 01:27 PM   #705
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give us more than old wives tales.
--Irvine
So, at least there's one gender social construct you acknowledge.
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