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Old 11-24-2009, 09:36 PM   #616
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Actually, for most parents, childbirth is the process of becoming a parent. The bond that forms between a mother and child in utero is well-documented. And for the vast, vast majority of couples, both a male and a female are necessary to procreate. Even for those who go about alternative forms of conception, the basic principles of a sperm cell and an egg still apply, for pity's sake. So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.



You're the one who asked the parenting question, Irvine. You were very specific.



The age-old debate, isn't it? I could quote Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge professor of psychology and psychiatry, who claims that "the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, while the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems." But that might get some people uncomfortable.

But I think I'll actually just quote a portion of our President's Father's Day speech instead:

"...Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

"But if we are honest with ourselves, we'll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing - missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

"You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

"...We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one.

"We need to help all the mothers out there who are raising these kids by themselves; the mothers who drop them off at school, go to work, pick up them up in the afternoon, work another shift, get dinner, make lunches, pay the bills, fix the house, and all the other things it takes both parents to do. So many of these women are doing a heroic job, but they need support. They need another parent. Their children need another parent. That's what keeps their foundation strong. It's what keeps the foundation of our country strong."
Nathan, they do not like this side of Barack Obama...
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:41 PM   #617
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we now know who the drama queen is in this thread.
Oh no you dit-ten ! !
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:41 PM   #618
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Actually, for most parents, childbirth is the process of becoming a parent. The bond that forms between a mother and child in utero is well-documented. And for the vast, vast majority of couples, both a male and a female are necessary to procreate. Even for those who go about alternative forms of conception, the basic principles of a sperm cell and an egg still apply, for pity's sake. So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.
what dont you understand about the fact that parenting and child birth are completely different? There are plenty of parents out there (or perhaps I should add the word 'vast' to make it sound more undeniable?) who have given birth to children and who have been the shittiest parents you could imagine. what does this do for your childbirth=parenting hypothesis? Have you ever even met anyone who was adopted or is that concept as foreign to you as it seems?
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:49 PM   #619
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what dont you understand about the fact that parenting and child birth are completely different?
If you read the speech I posted, you'd know that the President agrees that it's one thing to have a child and another to raise it, but his point is clear -- if you have a child, you're a parent, and you need to raise your game.

It's a great speech. You should read it.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:50 PM   #620
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Actually, for most parents, childbirth is the process of becoming a parent. The bond that forms between a mother and child in utero is well-documented. And for the vast, vast majority of couples, both a male and a female are necessary to procreate. Even for those who go about alternative forms of conception, the basic principles of a sperm cell and an egg still apply, for pity's sake.

but it isn't parenting, nathan. just ask the parents who've adopted children. or do they not count?


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So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.
ok, here we go. the gender essentialism. we've come full circle, and this is the line of thinking that prompted the initial questions. you're saying that there are certain things that *only* men can do -- in parenting -- and that *only* women can do -- in parenting -- and yet you can't name a single thing. the conception of a child requires a sperm and an egg, indeed, but technology has magically given the infertile other options. the same with adoption.

so, again, nathan, and hopefully for the last time, what can a male parent do that a female parent cannot do? and, to push it just a bit further, do you think that anyone parents in a vacuum? or do parents rely on other people as well -- aunts, uncles, grandparents, coaches, teachers, other parents, older siblings, etc.? does it not take a village?

as you quoted below: "...We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one."

so you've essentially shot the rest of your post in the foot.





Quote:
You're the one who asked the parenting question, Irvine. You were very specific.

i'm still awaiting my answer.

you've pointed to parenting as a justification against marriage equality, and i'm holding your feet to the fire.

i understand that you're operating under these talking points:

Quote:
8. Are you saying gays cannot be good parents?

A: “Two men might each be a good father, but neither can be a mom. The ideal for children is the love of their own mom and dad. No same-sex couple can provide that.”

9. What about older or infertile couples? If they marry why not same-sex couples?

A: “Every man and woman who marries is capable of giving any child they create (or adopt) a mother and a father. No same-sex couple can do this. It’s apples and oranges.”

Marriage Talking Points - National Organization for Marriage

and what we're saying is that good parents can meet a child's needs, and they know when to ask for help. and there could be differences between a gay household and a straight household, but there's not a shred of evidence to suggest that it's at all harmful to children. none.

in fact, the newest evidence suggests that two women might actually make the best parents. but i assume that will be ignored. as ever.

but this is all moot, anyway, since being a parent is not a requirement to marriage.


Quote:
The age-old debate, isn't it? I could quote Simon Baron-Cohen, a Cambridge professor of psychology and psychiatry, who claims that "the female brain is predominantly hard-wired for empathy, while the male brain is predominantly hard-wired for understanding and building systems." But that might get some people uncomfortable.

how brave of you.


Quote:
But I think I'll actually just quote a portion of our President's Father's Day speech instead:

i know, straights should make better fathers. but i hardly see how that's my fault, and i hardly see how my willingness to be a father myself is somehow a bad thing, nor do i have any idea what this has to do with marriage.

it's incredibly cheap and dishonest to try to tie this social issue to gay people.



Quote:
"...Of all the rocks upon which we build our lives, we are reminded today that family is the most important. And we are called to recognize and honor how critical every father is to that foundation. They are teachers and coaches. They are mentors and role models. They are examples of success and the men who constantly push us toward it.

"But if we are honest with ourselves, we'll admit that what too many fathers also are is missing - missing from too many lives and too many homes. They have abandoned their responsibilities, acting like boys instead of men. And the foundations of our families are weaker because of it.

"You and I know how true this is in the African-American community. We know that more than half of all black children live in single-parent households, a number that has doubled - doubled - since we were children. We know the statistics - that children who grow up without a father are five times more likely to live in poverty and commit crime; nine times more likely to drop out of schools and twenty times more likely to end up in prison. They are more likely to have behavioral problems, or run away from home, or become teenage parents themselves. And the foundations of our community are weaker because of it.

"...We need fathers to realize that responsibility does not end at conception. We need them to realize that what makes you a man is not the ability to have a child - it's the courage to raise one.

"We need to help all the mothers out there who are raising these kids by themselves; the mothers who drop them off at school, go to work, pick up them up in the afternoon, work another shift, get dinner, make lunches, pay the bills, fix the house, and all the other things it takes both parents to do. So many of these women are doing a heroic job, but they need support. They need another parent. Their children need another parent. That's what keeps their foundation strong. It's what keeps the foundation of our country strong."

so, tell me, which of these qualities mentioned above can a woman never, ever possess:

teachers
coaches
mentors
role models
examples of success
courage
drop them off at school
go to work
pick up them up in the afternoon
work another shift
get dinner
]make lunches
pay the bills
fix the house


which one?

your thinking on this is uncharacteristically blinkered, nathan. it's like when you kept pointing to whatever study that said that two parents were better than one, and you said that this meant that the best situation for a child was a home with a married mother and father. but that conclusion was wildly incomplete because the study didn't compare male/female to same-sex households. Yolland schooled you on this, and you sort of blinked, and then repeated the same thing.

you're like STING with Iraq on this subject.

and it's a sideshow (that i've indulged) from what this thread is about: marriage equality.
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Old 11-24-2009, 09:52 PM   #621
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It's a great speech. You should read it.


we did. it's a great jumping off point to get more people into protected, stable marriages so they can raise children together.

gay or straight.

(funny, Obama never mentions the sheer horror of two men talking to their daughter about tampons -- i guess that's not the most critical issue a parent will ever face?)
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:00 PM   #622
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If you read the speech I posted, you'd know that the President agrees that it's one thing to have a child and another to raise it, but his point is clear -- if you have a child, you're a parent, and you need to raise your game.

It's a great speech. You should read it.
If you have a child, then yes, you are a parent. How poignant! Its one thing to have a child and its another to raise it? No shit. Thats the point. But you can have a child without giving birth to one. You pretty much made that point by not mentioning birth once in your post. you made a point without even intending to. Good for you!
And what makes you think I would give a shit what your president thinks about child rearing, regardless of his stance on it???
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:00 PM   #623
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Yes, and i wouldn't let her near my kids either.
So then your post was pointless? Again...
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:02 PM   #624
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So then your post was pointless? Again...
but didnt you see the yucky picture of two boys kissing?
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:04 PM   #625
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i'll just post this so it's easier:



Quote:
SAME-SEX MARRIAGE:
Answering the Toughest Questions

Strong majorities of Americans oppose gay marriage. Supporters of SSM therefore seek to change the subject to just about anything: discrimination, benefits, homosexuality, gay rights, federalism, our sacred constitution. Our goal is simple: Shift the conversation rapidly back to marriage. Don’t get sidetracked. Marriage is the issue. Marriage is what we care about. Marriage really matters. It’s just common sense.



I. THE MOST EFFECTIVE SINGLE SENTENCE:

Extensive and repeated polling agrees that the single most effective message is:

"Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose,
they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us."

This allows people to express support for tolerance while opposing gay marriage. Some modify it to “People have a right to live as they choose, they don’t have the right to redefine marriage for all of us.”

Language to avoid at all costs: "Ban same-sex marriage." Our base loves this wording. So do supporters of SSM. They know it causes us to lose about ten percentage points in polls. Don’t use it. Say we’re against “redefining marriage” or in favor or “marriage as the union of husband and wife” NEVER “banning same-sex marriage.”



II. MAIN MESSAGE THE 3X5 CARD.

• Marriage is between a husband and wife. The people of [this state] do not want marriage to be anything but that. We do not want government or judges changing that definition for us today or our children tomorrow.

• We need a marriage amendment to settle the gay marriage issue once and for all, so we don’t have it in our face every day for the next ten years.

• Marriage is about bringing together men and women so children can have mothers and fathers.

• Do we want to teach the next generation that one-half of humanity—either mothers or fathers—are dispensable, unimportant? Children are confused enough right now with sexual messages. Let’s not confuse them further.

• Gays and Lesbians have a right to live as they choose; they don’t have a right to redefine marriage for the rest of us.



III. FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

1. Are you a bigot? “Why do you want to take away people’s rights?”
“Isn’t it wrong to write discrimination into the constitution?”

A: “Do you really believe people like me who believe mothers and fathers both matter to kids are like bigots and racists? I think that’s pretty offensive, don’t you? Particularly to the 60 percent of African-Americans who oppose same-sex marriage. Marriage as the union of husband and wife isn’t new; it’s not taking away anyone’s rights. It’s common sense.”

2. Isn’t the ban on gay marriage like bans on interracial marriage?

A: “Bans on interracial marriage were about keeping two races apart so that one race could oppress the other. Marriage is about bringing two sexes together, so that children get the love of their own mom and a dad, and women don’t get stuck with the enormous disadvantages of parenting alone.” “Having a parent of two different races is just not the same as being deprived of your mother—or your father.”

3. Why do we need a constitutional amendment? “Isn’t DOMA enough?”

A: “Lawsuits like the one that imposed gay marriage in Massachusetts now threaten marriage in at least 12 other states so far. We need a marriage amendment to settle the issue once and for all, so we don’t have this debate in our face every day. The people get to decide what marriage means. No-end run around the rules by activist judges or grandstanding San-Francisco-style politicians.”

4. What’s the harm from SSM? “How can Adam and Steve hurt your marriage?”

A: “Who gets harmed? The people of this state who lose our right to define marriage as the union of husband and wife, that’s who. That is just not right.”

A: “If courts rule that same-sex marriage is a civil right, then, people like you and me who believe children need moms and dads will be treated like bigots and racists.”

“Religious groups like Catholic Charities or the Salvation Army may lose their tax exemptions, or be denied the use of parks and other public facilities, unless they endorse gay marriage."

“Public schools will teach young children that two men being intimate are just the same as a husband and wife, even when it comes to raising kids.”

“When the idea that children need moms and dads get legally stigmatized as bigotry, the job of parents and faith communities trying to transmit a marriage culture to their kids is going to get a lot harder.”

“One thing is for sure: The people of this state will lose our right to keep marriage as the union of a husband and wife. That’s not right.”

5. Why do you want to interfere with love?

A: “Love is a great thing. But marriage isn’t just any kind of love; it’s the special love of husband and wife for each other and their children.”

6. What about benefits? Don’t gay couples and their kids need the benefits and protections of marriage?”

A: “If medical proxies aren’t working, let’s fix that problem. If people need health care, let’s get them health care. Don’t mess with marriage.”

A: “The issue isn’t benefits, it is marriage. Local folks can decide benefits. This is about the meaning of marriage, our most basic social institution for protecting children. “

7. Isn’t divorce the real threat to marriage?

A: “High rates of divorce are one more reason we should be strengthening marriage, not conducting radical social experiments on it.”

8. Are you saying gays cannot be good parents?

A: “Two men might each be a good father, but neither can be a mom. The ideal for children is the love of their own mom and dad. No same-sex couple can provide that.”

9. What about older or infertile couples? If they marry why not same-sex couples?

A: “Every man and woman who marries is capable of giving any child they create (or adopt) a mother and a father. No same-sex couple can do this. It’s apples and oranges.”

Marriage Talking Points - National Organization for Marriage
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:08 PM   #626
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I enjoy how they worked racism into the equation, just so they could squash it 2 sentences later



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Old 11-24-2009, 10:26 PM   #627
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So trying to argue that biology doesn't make a difference in the parenting process -- and that the two sexes don't play unique and complimentary roles -- is a bit like pissing into the wind.
A point I've made several times. It's a calculated piss in the wind.

The same-sex marriage debate is about "rights" and "tolerance" and "equality" for adults. That's a debate worth having. Same-sex parenting is another issue and supporters of gay marriage seem to have made a calculated decision to make the dishonest claim that two fathers or mothers is no different than a mother and a father. Why? well to admit otherwise might seriously undercut support by Americans to achieve goal one, redefining marriage into law.

When I say dishonest, I realize many liberals truly believe in the interchangeability of the sexes. But to the rest of us not well-versed in feminist theory, gender fluidity studies, Postmodernism or it's-all-good pop culture -- it's a load of crap which defies all common sense.

What I didn't say but some of you will hear.

Gay couples can't be loving parents or raise great kids.
Traditional parents are always perfect and never abuse or neglect their children.
Kids would be better off in foster homes or sold into the sex slave industry than be adopted by gays.
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:39 PM   #628
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I'll take the word of qualified, objective doctors over that of religious yahoos on the internet anyday

Children with Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Parents | American Academy of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry
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Old 11-24-2009, 10:55 PM   #629
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A point I've made several times. It's a calculated piss in the wind.

The same-sex marriage debate is about "rights" and "tolerance" and "equality" for adults. That's a debate worth having. Same-sex parenting is another issue and supporters of gay marriage seem to have made a calculated decision to make the dishonest claim that two fathers or mothers is no different than a mother and a father. Why? well to admit otherwise might seriously undercut support by Americans to achieve goal one, redefining marriage into law.


again, we're going to tie parenthood to marriage? go for it.

also, you realize that all states but Florida allow same-sex couples to adopt, and most enthusiastically welcome gay couples because they are much more likely to adopt a child of a different race or with a handicap.

so, again, what point are you trying to make other than the fact that your heterosexuality makes you superior?





Quote:
When I say dishonest, I realize many liberals truly believe in the interchangeability of the sexes. But to the rest of us not well-versed in feminist theory, gender fluidity studies, Postmodernism or it's-all-good pop culture -- it's a load of crap which defies all common sense.

again, show us how this plays out in childrearing. we're beginning to see that the best environment for a child is with two lesbians. and that heterosexual men are bad fathers, so says our president.





Quote:
Gay couples can't be loving parents or raise great kids.
Traditional parents are always perfect and never abuse or neglect their children.
Kids would be better off in foster homes or sold into the sex slave industry than be adopted by gays.

yup, gays are mean. for decades, we've harassed and mocked straights. poor you.

Quote:
What effect does having LGBT parents have on children?

Current research shows that children with gay and lesbian parents do not differ from children with heterosexual parents in their emotional development or in their relationships with peers and adults. It is the quality of the parent/child relationship and not the parent’s sexual orientation that has an effect on a child’s development. Contrary to popular belief, children of lesbian, gay, or transgender parents:

Are not more likely to be gay than children with heterosexual parents.
Are not more likely to be sexually abused.
Do not show differences in whether they think of themselves as male or female (gender identity).
Do not show differences in their male and female behaviors (gender role behavior).
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Old 11-24-2009, 11:04 PM   #630
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Psychiatry is more political science than medical science. Especially their position on homosexuality. Homosexuality was listed as a disorder for the same reason it was later removed: prevailing attitudes, societal mores and politics. Not science.
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