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Old 11-15-2009, 06:05 PM   #46
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And as I've pointed out, I cannot defend any moral decision in a purely secular manner.


could you explain to me, in precise terms, why it is that Memphis and i are undeserving of the status of marriage. i would like to know what it is about our relationship that lacks in comparison to any and all other heterosexual relationships.

because that's really what's going on here. i can understand, to a degree, the mild apathy of FG and BW. really, why should they care if i'm allowed to get married or not? i do have the legal right to have sex with any consenting adult of my choice, i do have the right to live with the consenting adult of my choice, and in some states (though not VA), we can have various documents written up that will offer us some kind of legal protections. but why should FG and BW care if i'm of a less-than status? why would it be in their best interests to allow me to get married?

empathy and compassion are certainly difficult to generate for other human beings when we have abstractions, and when we resort to mob rule, those are usually the first two things that go out the door. clearly, the message that gay relationships are one thing, and straight relationships are another (and better), is a message that comes across loud and clear (and why gay teens tend to be far more likely to kill themselves). so why *should* we make changes?

that seems to be the situation, and that appears to be the task at hand.
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:15 PM   #47
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And as I've pointed out, I cannot defend any moral decision in a purely secular manner.
If this is how you feel, then you should step aside and stop halting progress in the secular, legal realm.

Like financeguy, I don't really understand why the Bible is being discussed in here either. We are using a book of stories about men being eaten by whales, snakes talking, virgins having babies and all manner of beasts small and large coexisting happily on a big boat to justify the prohibition on gay marriage...you can see how this sounds basically demented to anyone who values our SECULAR legal system.
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:35 PM   #48
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If this is how you feel, then you should step aside and stop halting progress in the secular, legal realm.
Actually, I guess what I should have said is that nobody can discuss morality in a purely secular manner.

In one way or another, your belief system is what you eventually turn to when you are asked "why" you believe what you believe.
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:38 PM   #49
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Actually, I guess what I should have said is that nobody can discuss morality in a purely secular manner.
Um, sure they could...
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:38 PM   #50
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i would like to know what it is about our relationship that lacks in comparison to any and all other heterosexual relationships..
well, to begin with - a vagina seems absent
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:40 PM   #51
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well, to begin with - a vagina seems absent
Wow, now we've gone to 3rd grade tactics...

Why do I even bother?
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:42 PM   #52
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well, to begin with - a vagina seems absent

exactly.

now, tell me, why is a vagina so important?
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:51 PM   #53
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exactly.

now, tell me, why is a vagina so important?
Do you want bad heavy metal song lyrics? Poetry? The birth of Christ?
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:52 PM   #54
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Do you want bad heavy metal song lyrics? Poetry? The birth of Christ?


be serious.

why is a vagina so critical.
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Old 11-15-2009, 06:56 PM   #55
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All jokes aside - this path of discussion usually ends up with the notion that there really is no such thing as "gender" - and if there is no such things as "gender" then there can be no such thing as a "gender role" - and if there is no such thing a "gender role" there can be no definition of marriage that includes "man" and "woman".
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:00 PM   #56
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All jokes aside - this path of discussion usually ends up with the notion that there really is no such thing as "gender" - and if there is no such things as "gender" then there can be no such thing as a "gender role" - and if there is no such thing a "gender role" there can be no definition of marriage that includes "man" and "woman".


no. see? you're avoiding the issue. i am not talking about gender, i am talking about biology. i am going in the exactly opposite direction you're thinking.

i am not at all talking about gender role constructs. i am talking about penises and vaginas and why they are so critical to the definition of marriage.

be serious.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:00 PM   #57
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because that's really what's going on here. i can understand, to a degree, the mild apathy of FG and BW. really, why should they care if i'm allowed to get married or not? i do have the legal right to have sex with any consenting adult of my choice, i do have the right to live with the consenting adult of my choice, and in some states (though not VA), we can have various documents written up that will offer us some kind of legal protections. but why should FG and BW care if i'm of a less-than status? why would it be in their best interests to allow me to get married?
I should mention I really have no great interest in getting married myself, which is mainly why I come across as apathetic on the gay marriage issue.

Marriage seems to be painted as some kind of panacea by some gay people (and I don't mean you), perhaps when it is finally legalised gay people will realise romantic relationships aren't exactly a bed of roses for us in the het world either. And I emphasize I am not directing that at you personally.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:04 PM   #58
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Marriage seems to be painted as some kind of panacea by some gay people (and I don't mean you), perhaps when it is finally legalised gay people will realise romantic relationships aren't exactly a bed of roses for us in the het world either. And I emphasize I am not directing that at you personally.


i understand.

i think there are some gay people who do think that marriage will solve their problems, but not too many. i know there are some people who's lives have been changed by getting married. i also know that i can think of fewer people more unsentimental about romantic relationships than gay men over the age of 40.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:18 PM   #59
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All jokes aside - this path of discussion usually ends up with the notion that there really is no such thing as "gender" - and if there is no such things as "gender" then there can be no such thing as a "gender role" - and if there is no such thing a "gender role" there can be no definition of marriage that includes "man" and "woman".
Well, then there you go. There are no such things as gender roles; most certainly not in Western civilization. And by somehow belittling homosexuals it is not going to make that so ever again. The days of women taking a supporting role to her leading man's life are over--gay marriage or not.
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Old 11-15-2009, 07:19 PM   #60
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No. Even though they do not believe it, I still believe their marriage is, at its very core, a spiritual act.
That is simply false.
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