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Old 11-23-2009, 02:15 PM   #526
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Both of you danced around everything asked of you.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:18 PM   #527
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What are you talking about?
Unless you admit gay men kissing is gross - then you are not being honest.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:54 PM   #528
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I think that's pretty naive, to be honest. Given that contraception and social welfare are readily available, it's naive to think that moral hazard isn't an issue here. Before contraception and the welfare state, you might have had a point.

There are communities where pregnancy and having a bunch of kids is a badge of honour. Not least because of the social welfare benefits.
1. Again, this implies that a nine-month pregnancy is something one just shrugs off as if it doesn't make a huge impact on someone's life.

2. I'm naive for saying adoption isn't the reason kids are getting pregnant? I think you need to understand that you're talking about my demographic, the people I know. I'm a teenager. I know exactly why kids do what they do sexually. And the ones that get pregnant aren't getting pregnant simply because, "Meh, who cares, someone can just adopt this kid!"

3. It's a badge of honor to continually give birth to children to put up for adoption? Really? I could understand if you were talking about a badge of honor for having and keeping children, even if that is the minority of cases, but I have no idea what you're getting at here.
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Old 11-23-2009, 02:58 PM   #529
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Unless you admit gay men kissing is gross - then you are not being honest.
No, she was talking about honesty in general. I think you're smart. You think before you post. But I think, in the end, you're against homosexuality for religious reasons and that's that. You're trying to rationalize it with these arguments, and they're not making sense. If you simply told us, "My religion has made its thoughts clear on homosexuality and I agree with them. That's my reason." I think it would go a long way to help us understand where you're coming from. I would disagree profusely with attempts to put religious views in law, but I would know why you think that way. Every secular attempt you've made to discuss this issue makes my head hurt because of how little sense it makes.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:43 PM   #530
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While I don't think this is the least bit accurate - it did make me realize something - it appears you actually view conservatives as enemies instead of people with different viewpoints.

At the end of the day, emotions rarely help make sound decisions...
While I agree with most of this, I would say to you, that it is easy for you and I not to get emotional about this topic when we do not have to worry about marriage being denied us.

I am emotional about it in reference to my gay relatives who have been a better role model for my marriage than the eleven marriages among my parents and my wife's parents.

I would also add into the mix that my cousin has done very well for himself, is married, has children despite being raised by two women.
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:50 PM   #531
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No, she was talking about honesty in general.
The sad part is - I truly believe that this is the only "answer" that some people want to hear.

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I think you're smart. You think before you post.
Thank you - I think the same of you and most of the others in this forum.

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But I think, in the end, you're against homosexuality for religious reasons and that's that.
I am not so quick to concede this point. My Christianity is quite "outside the box" in many areas. While I obviously agree with the Fundamentalists on whether or not homosexual acts are sinful - I disagree with them on astrophysics, geology, biology (evolution)...etc. I also disagree with them that the state should legislate marriages. This is more of a libertarian view than a conservative one.
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You're trying to rationalize it with these arguments, and they're not making sense.
Well, to quite a few people outside this forum these arguments do in fact make sense. To many it does seem that a child should be placed in a home with mother and father - if possible. To many it does make sense that the state should not be involved in the marriage process. While I am not suggesting you agree because a large group of people also agree - I simply want to point out that the ideas being presented are not so out of the mainstream that they shouldn't be discussed.

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If you simply told us, "My religion has made its thoughts clear on homosexuality and I agree with them. That's my reason." I think it would go a long way to help us understand where you're coming from.
As I said above - this is only partially true.
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I would disagree profusely with attempts to put religious views in law, but I would know why you think that way.
I agree to a certain extent, which is why I said the state should not be involved in the marriage process.

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Every secular attempt you've made to discuss this issue makes my head hurt...
Please accept my apologies...
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Old 11-23-2009, 03:57 PM   #532
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While I agree with most of this, I would say to you, that it is easy for you and I not to get emotional about this topic when we do not have to worry about marriage being denied us.

I am emotional about it in reference to my gay relatives who have been a better role model for my marriage than the eleven marriages among my parents and my wife's parents.

I would also add into the mix that my cousin has done very well for himself, is married, has children despite being raised by two women.
Well, I certainly can't deny what you have observed. This is obviously a success story - and I'm certain there are others. I think you have certainly demonstrated that gay adoption can succeed, but I am still not convinced that it is a child's best chance for success if equally qualified heterosexual couples are available.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:34 PM   #533
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Well, to quite a few people outside this forum these arguments do in fact make sense. To many it does seem that a child should be placed in a home with mother and father - if possible. To many it does make sense that the state should not be involved in the marriage process. While I am not suggesting you agree because a large group of people also agree - I simply want to point out that the ideas being presented are not so out of the mainstream that they shouldn't be discussed.

I agree to a certain extent, which is why I said the state should not be involved in the marriage process.
I understand that a lot of people agree with the arguments, but that's simple because people infer that the norm works best. It's a bit of a logical fallacy if you ask me.

And I think you need to begin talking about the laws should be in context: know that the state will not be taken from the marriage process. It's just not going to happen. I think it would be more fruitful for everyone if you discussed what should happen with marriage while acknowledging that it's not going away.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:36 PM   #534
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I think you need to understand that you're talking about my demographic, the people I know. I'm a teenager. I know exactly why kids do what they do sexually. And the ones that get pregnant aren't getting pregnant simply because, "Meh, who cares, someone can just adopt this kid!"
From a middle class background though, right?

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3. It's a badge of honor to continually give birth to children to put up for adoption?
In a certain class of society.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:37 PM   #535
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Well, I certainly can't deny what you have observed. This is obviously a success story - and I'm certain there are others. I think you have certainly demonstrated that gay adoption can succeed, but I am still not convinced that it is a child's best chance for success if equally qualified heterosexual couples are available.
It's so difficult to decide what is the "best chance" and they're so few and far between that I think it's silly to try. Any opportunity for a child to be raised by caring, competent persons or people is a good opportunity, and shouldn't be judged based on such inconsequential things.

No one knows what the perfect upbringing is.
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:41 PM   #536
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From a middle class background though, right?

In a certain class of society.
I am from a middle class background. One of my best friends is from a lower class background. I have friends above and below the poverty line.

What class is this and how prominent is it? And is it really a class of society that would be impacted by a small percentage of new couples looking to adopt?
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Old 11-23-2009, 04:52 PM   #537
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In a certain class of society.
Oh, I would love to hear this, please explain.
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:03 PM   #538
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Oh, I would love to hear this, please explain.
Depending on political point of view, elements of society that are disadvantaged or elements of society that are addicted to handouts.
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:07 PM   #539
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Depending on political point of view, elements of society that are disadvantaged or elements of society that are addicted to handouts.
No, it doesn't depend on political point of view. You stated more than once that there is a "certain class of society" where it's a badge of honor to pop out babies and then give them up to adoption. So what are you basing this on, and where are your numbers? And what the hell do "handouts" have to do with it?
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Old 11-23-2009, 05:18 PM   #540
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No, it doesn't depend on political point of view. You stated more than once that there is a "certain class of society" where it's a badge of honor to pop out babies and then give them up to adoption. So what are you basing this on, and where are your numbers? And what the hell do "handouts" have to do with it?
Well, considering we had a thread about the subject not all that long ago. I think this was the situation being discussed at that time:

Alan Colmes' Liberaland Mother Of Octuplets Has Six Other Kids
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