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Old 11-22-2009, 11:27 PM   #511
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AEON, I have to go to bed, so I'll check back in the morning.
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:41 PM   #512
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Why do you keep trying to paint me as someone that is opposed to gay couples specifically from adopting?
What other reason would you have for bringing this line of thinking up?
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Old 11-22-2009, 11:47 PM   #513
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I'm addressing the belief that the state shouldn't be involved in marriage at all, yet you refuse to engage in this discussion. Why is that?
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Because I already answered it.
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Then please direct me to the post. It may have gotten lost somewhere in the adoption sidetrack

These quotes are from this thread...

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Originally Posted by AEON
...and I'm leaning toward entirely removing incentives for marriage...
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...Let’s just move to some sort of flat tax model and I’ll be happy.
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best left outside of the government's interference. It does not need incentives any more than it needs protection
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Legal affirmation of romance is not necessary when there are no legal incentives. However, if any two (or more) people want to draft any sort of "contract" regarding property, inheritance, money...etc. - they a free to do so and the court system can and should be used to protect these contracts just like any other contract between people.
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Concerning taxes, I am in favor of a flat tax across the board for every adult - married or not married
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Old 11-23-2009, 12:38 AM   #514
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Oh please. You'll do anything to avoid the real issue.
While I don't think this is the least bit accurate - it did make me realize something - it appears you actually view conservatives as enemies instead of people with different viewpoints.

At the end of the day, emotions rarely help make sound decisions...
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Old 11-23-2009, 06:05 AM   #515
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While I don't think this is the least bit accurate - it did make me realize something - it appears you actually view conservatives as enemies instead of people with different viewpoints.
Although I think I've done a very good job of separating ideas from people (which I chalk up to all the philosophy I've read), it's worth remembering that it's much easier to do this when the outcome of one's opinions one way or another has no bearing on one's life. That much different than being gay or even female, really, where conservative viewpoints, if enacted, would enact terrible hardship and would certainly make it much harder to see conservatives as allies in any respect.
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Old 11-23-2009, 07:59 AM   #516
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AEON and Fguy, you guys put on quite the tap dancing show last night after I went to bed. I'm sure your friends would have found it very straight of you guys.
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:03 AM   #517
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AEON, thank you for the quotes you provided. I see that, to you, you've answered the questions, and I appreciate the effort you went to to get the quotes.

However, your answers are general and based on theory. The denial of rights to a specific group that has no effect on you whatsoever is a very real thing to the members of that group. Therefore, a few more specific questions may require more specific answers.

Right now, you and I have a privilege that is denied to gays and lesbians: we can get married and enjoy countless (although I think someone has actually counted them) benefits, both legal and financial, from that marriage. You think that gays and lesbians should be denied that privilege, based solely on their sexuality.

How, then, do we reconcile this in the real world? The world right now? How do we make things equal and fair? You've proposed eliminating state-sponsored marriage as a solution. Fair enough. You're willing to give up your state-sponsored marriage (taking mine with it against my will, but that's another story). How do we implement that as soon as possible to really follow through with your somewhat severe method of making things equal?
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Old 11-23-2009, 08:06 AM   #518
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While I don't think this is the least bit accurate - it did make me realize something - it appears you actually view conservatives as enemies instead of people with different viewpoints.

At the end of the day, emotions rarely help make sound decisions...
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Although I think I've done a very good job of separating ideas from people (which I chalk up to all the philosophy I've read), it's worth remembering that it's much easier to do this when the outcome of one's opinions one way or another has no bearing on one's life. That much different than being gay or even female, really, where conservative viewpoints, if enacted, would enact terrible hardship and would certainly make it much harder to see conservatives as allies in any respect.
melon has hit it right here. When all I hear from conservatives are ways to take things away from groups they don't like, what else are they but enemies?
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:24 AM   #519
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...When all I hear from conservatives are ways to take things away from groups they don't like, what else are they but enemies?
Do you honestly think a conservative goal is to "take things away from groups they don't like"?
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:27 AM   #520
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Isn't that what social conservatives have been doing(by definition)? Either taking away or desperately holding on to those means of seperating people.
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Old 11-23-2009, 09:34 AM   #521
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Then please direct me to the post. It may have gotten lost somewhere in the adoption sidetrack.
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If I find it, and re-post it, what will you do to entertain us?
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I can't tap dance, although I took lessons once.

And no one wants me to sing. :shudder:

I could fall off my bicycle. I haven't yet, but I think we all know it's going to happen at some point.
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AEON, thank you for the quotes you provided..
C'mon martha - start dancing or singing or falling....
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:01 AM   #522
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Although I think I've done a very good job of separating ideas from people (which I chalk up to all the philosophy I've read), it's worth remembering that it's much easier to do this when the outcome of one's opinions one way or another has no bearing on one's life.
I understand the difficulty you face when this discussion addresses points very close to your personal life. However, since you mentioned a love of philosophy – I thought I would quote Marcus Aurelius:

Quote:
Perceive at last that you have in you something better and more divine than the things which cause the various effects, and as it were pull you by the strings. What is there now in my mind? is it fear, or suspicion, or desire, or anything of the kind? – Marcus Aurelius
When we are pulled by the strings of emotion, our thoughts are more likely to become irrational.

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That much different than being gay or even female, really, where conservative viewpoints, if enacted, would enact terrible hardship and would certainly make it much harder to see conservatives as allies in any respect.
Yet, many of these “conservatives” have bled or died to ensure the freedom of even having this debate. I am hopeful that in this case, you see them as allies and not enemies.
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Old 11-23-2009, 10:30 AM   #523
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C'mon martha - start dancing or singing or falling....
I'll do my best on my bike on the way to work.
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Old 11-23-2009, 11:39 AM   #524
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AEON, thank you for the quotes you provided.
Joking aside - I do appreciate your courtesy here. ^
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Old 11-23-2009, 01:41 PM   #525
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AEON and Fguy, you guys put on quite the tap dancing show last night after I went to bed. I'm sure your friends would have found it very straight of you guys.
What are you talking about?
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