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Old 11-20-2009, 06:13 PM   #301
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You really misunderstood Frank's quote.

And now apparently you don't know what namecalling actually is...
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:02 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Both you and I know that what you chose to respond to was not in any way the real question that Irvine was posing to you. Hence the conclusion that you're dodging the real question, which has been asked numerous times this thread, and which you've yet to directly answer.
I still do not understand the nature of this "one real question" being asked, as it appears there were many questions - and more often than not, it seems when I address a question- I get a response that indicates that this is in fact, not the question being asked.

For example, there was a time in this thread where I thought Irvine was indicating there was no difference whatsoever between homosexual couples and heterosexual ones. Pointing out there is at minimum a biological difference seems elemental, but somehow it was not being conceded. Therefore, it was necessary to demonstrate this difference before we could go on to the comparison portion of the question.

Another question floating around is about choice - whether human beings have the choice to be homosexual or engage in homosexual acts. I think I've made it obvious that I subscribe to a translation of the Bible that indicates that homosexual acts are immoral (i.e., bad choices). Combined with my interpretation of natural law, biology, and physical health - I have sufficient cause to think that homosexual acts are "wrong". Additionally, like most human activities, sexual acts are choices and I don't view "orientation" differently than any individual's battle to lead a moral life. We all have burdens and inclinations, some have more - some have less. However, out of respect for those that have called for a "secular" discussion - and the fact it has been covered already by both sides of the argument - I would like to table my personal opinion about homosexual activity (but if people are determined to have a religious-based discussion, there should probably be a separate thread for that).

The main reason I would like to "table" my personal opposition is that I do realize that my opinion is only one in a sea of opinions. And more often than not, when we are discussing activity between two consenting adults, my opinions end where their freedom begins. Because of this, among other things, I have taken a rather libertarian view that the state should no longer be involved in the marriage process.

The state should not have the burden\privilege of granting or denying marriages - especially when our society presently has no real consensus as to what marriage is (legal union of convenience, spiritual union for life, political arrangement, for as long as passion lasts...etc?). While I understand several of you think this is ridiculous and it could never be reversed - that doesn't mean I can't express the opinion that this is how it "ought" to be. Isn't that one of the main things we do in here - discuss the way things ought to be?

Regarding the question about the current laws on marriage, and should they be extended to homosexual couples or polygamous arrangements - I oppose almost anything that would extend the state's grasp on our personal lives, included extending the umbrella of "marriage" further than it already has been extended.

I hope this addresses the question(s) you are asking. In forums like this, or in any debate - it is far easier to ask the questions than to answer them. It seems that there is a bit of trend of people unwilling to post a full, well thought out opinion - choosing to deride the opposition instead of supporting their own ideas which of course, would open their stance to questions and scrutiny.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:21 PM   #303
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I think I've made it obvious that I subscribe to a translation of the Bible that indicates that homosexual acts are immoral (i.e., bad choices). Combined with my interpretation of natural law, biology, and physical health - I have sufficient cause to think that homosexual acts are "wrong".
Actually, no, in this thread you had not made that obvious at all, and did everything to avoid stating your beliefs on why homosexuals don't deserve marriage. I am glad that you have finally directly answered the question, but it does sadden me that you believe people are homosexual by choice. Or worse yet (at least in my eyes), that their homosexuality may not be a choice, but that choosing to express their sexuality in the same way that heterosexuals express theirs is a sin.
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Old 11-20-2009, 07:23 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
You really misunderstood Frank's quote.

...
Ok, enlighten us then, explain what Barney really meant by this:

Quote:
Don't call people bigots just because you disagree with them
~Barney Frank


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Old 11-20-2009, 07:42 PM   #305
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Ok, enlighten us then, explain what Barney really meant by this:



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Quote:
Don't call people bigots just because you disagree with them
~Barney Frank
I already have, you just chose to ignore it.

I do not call David Duke a bigot because I disagree with him, I call him a bigot because he is one...

Surely you can see the difference? No? If not, no one can help you.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:05 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
but it does sadden me that you believe people are homosexual by choice.
The trick part to this is: when did anyone choose to be straight?
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:41 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by Diemen
Actually, no, in this thread you had not made that obvious at all, and did everything to avoid stating your beliefs on why homosexuals don't deserve marriage.
I beg to differ…
Quote:
Originally Posted by AEON

I happen to agree with the Catholic Church's view that being a homosexual is not a sin, but acting it out is. I don't fully understand why God creates the desire - then forbids it. But I can say that about a great many desires. It goes all the way to the beginning of mankind's relationship with God - desiring what is forbidden.

It has been my observation - that over time - God's wisdom prevails both personally, and socially. I concede that Melon's interpretations regarding the Bible's stance on homosexuality may be correct, and I always pray that the Holy Spirit will open my eyes and heart to the actual meaning of any passage, not just the ones concerning homosexuality.

As it stands now, it just seems that if the Bible genuinely wanted to make an exception for homosexuality (and as many have pointed out, there were certainly homosexuals in Biblical times) then there would be more written about it. Every instance of homosexuality written in the Bible is portrayed in a negative light. It would seem - that if God did intend to permit loving gay marriages - there would be at least one example and just a tad bit of wisdom thrown their way on how to be a good loving gay married couple.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:47 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by martha View Post
The trick part to this is: when did anyone choose to be straight?
I think I addressed this...

Quote:
Additionally, like most human activities, sexual acts are choices and I don't view "orientation" differently than any individual's battle to lead a moral life. We all have burdens and inclinations, some have more - some have less
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:15 PM   #309
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AEON, do you think there are other sins that do not have any standing in logic, well besides the levitical laws? Why do you think this is the only one?
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:20 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
AEON, do you think there are other sins that do not have any standing in logic, well besides the levitical laws? Why do you think this is the only one?

So, we are going the Biblical route?
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:31 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by melon View Post
I'm thinking he regrets abolishing indentured servitude...
One could argue that's still around - it's called debt.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:40 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by AEON View Post
Combined with my interpretation of natural law, biology, and physical health - I have sufficient cause to think that homosexual acts are "wrong".
Could you elaborate on this?
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:43 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post

I do not call David Duke a bigot because I disagree with him, I call him a bigot because he is one...

So people who favor Gay Civil Unions but also favor traditional marriage are similar to David Duke-bigots?
And what do you call folks who oppose both Gay Marriage and Gay Civil Unions?

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Old 11-20-2009, 09:51 PM   #314
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So people who favor Gay Civil Unions but also favor traditional marriage are similar to David Duke-bigots?

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Indeed. And that's the main problem with the left. If one holds certain points of view, one is automatically, de facto, a bigot.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:55 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by financeguy View Post
Indeed. And that's the main problem with the left. If one holds certain points of view, one is automatically, de facto, a bigot.
Yeah, but I'm with Barney Frank here, I don't think one should do that.

It's too bad many on the left in FYM didn't get the same memo Barney got.

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