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Old 11-19-2009, 12:46 PM   #286
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My "broad strokes" comment was in reference to your "white guys" statement.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:19 PM   #287
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Because the other three things have nothing to do with what we're talking about? Because they're all legitimate statuses that anyone can have?

I mean, seriously, INDY (and AEON, et al.) ... what is the problem with gay marriage? Why do you want it to be a union and not a marriage? Is there some difference there that's important, some distinction that matters? Something I'm missing here? I mean, you wouldn't so vehemently be against gays being allowed to marry unless there was something really dangerous about it happening, right?
A person is either married or single. Why have the divorced or widowed classification?

I voted no on Prop 8 in CA because I have no problem with gays getting married.

But I stand with all the gay people and gay supporters in Washington State that put 'Civil Unions' on the ballot this last election and won their rights for equal protection.

The "everything but the word marriage" was put on the ballot in Washington by gay rights supporters because they wanted 'equal rights' and 'equal protection'.

The ballot was not sponsored or supported by 'anti- gay' groups.

Sure, we have a handfull of places were gay 'marriage' can win, but it appears only to be a few places. With initiatives like the one in Washington other states will flip. I really believe CA and Maines losing margins were close enough that by just leaving out the word 'marriage' gays would have won their rights by a popular vote, just like what happened in Washington.

That would be much better to have a record like 6 wins and 28 loses, win the most recent elections being 'wins' instead of losses.

Right now the record is something like 1 win and 33 loses?

and what won at the ballot? Equal rights and protections for gays by a popular vote! Under the term, "Unions".

The best way to win an argument? Is to frame it in away most likely to win!

Once 'unions' are law. Gays will be able to get married and have all the same rights and benefits of 'marriage' as everyone else.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:39 PM   #288
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A person is either married or single. Why have the divorced or widowed classification?

I voted no on Prop 8 in CA because I have no problem with gays getting married.

But I stand with all the gay people and gay supporters in Washington State that put 'Civil Unions' on the ballot this last election and won their rights for equal protection.

The "everything but the word marriage" was put on the ballot in Washington by gay rights supporters because they wanted 'equal rights' and 'equal protection'.

The ballot was not sponsored or supported by 'anti- gay' groups.

Sure, we have a handfull of places were gay 'marriage' can win, but it appears only to be a few places. With initiatives like the one in Washington other states will flip. I really believe CA and Maines losing margins were close enough that by just leaving out the word 'marriage' gays would have won their rights by a popular vote, just like what happened in Washington.

That would be much better to have a record like 6 wins and 28 loses, win the most recent elections being 'wins' instead of losses.

Right now the record is something like 1 win and 33 loses?

and what won at the ballot? Equal rights and protections for gays by a popular vote! Under the term, "Unions".

The best way to win an argument? Is to frame it in away most likely to win!

Once 'unions' are law. Gays will be able to get married and have all the same rights and benefits of 'marriage' as everyone else.
Do you understand why I support marriage? Shit, I'm straight. I have nothing invested in this whatsoever. I support marriage because that's what gays want. And I support it because they want something reasonable, something they deserve, something that does no harm to anyone. If they just wanted civil unions, then I'd support civil unions. But because they want marriage and that desire is in no way unreasonable, I support that.
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Old 11-19-2009, 01:42 PM   #289
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Would you have voted against Civil Unions in Washington State?
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Old 11-20-2009, 02:58 AM   #290
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Not at all, but that's not the point.
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Old 11-20-2009, 06:56 AM   #291
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I support equal rights, including calling it marriage. I do agree with deep on a strategy level, that with the defacto rights in force, the term marriage will follow. However, it's not up to me to strategize and I understand why calling it anything less than marriage is discriminatory, so I defer to the judgment of those making the call. I think it's a harder road but a better destination.
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Old 11-20-2009, 08:13 AM   #292
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My "broad strokes" comment was in reference to your "white guys" statement.
I know, but the was for the "you're not" follow-up.
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Old 11-20-2009, 09:03 AM   #293
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The best way to win an argument? Is to frame it in away most likely to win!

Once 'unions' are law. Gays will be able to get married and have all the same rights and benefits of 'marriage' as everyone else.
The way we got gay marriage in Canada was by eroding basically all differences under the law over a 20 year period and then going in for the marriage kill (though there was no "union" before that as a bridge). So your argument is likely sound in my view.

However, I doubt that it would get you much farther than you are now. You're right that those two states, CA and ME may have flipped...but the states that are hostile to the idea of equal rights for gays and lesbians (ie. most of your country) would not budge for unions either.

The thing that will defeat the anti-gay marriage crowd at the ballot will be time. In my view, they probably have about 20 years to go at most in a great number of states. There are some that will likely take longer, however.
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:34 AM   #294
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Would you have voted against Civil Unions in Washington State?
careful, others have been labeled as bigots by previously taking this stance.

<>
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Old 11-20-2009, 10:35 AM   #295
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careful, others have been labeled as bigots by previously taking this stance.

<>
False, no one has...

Quit trolling.
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Old 11-20-2009, 12:47 PM   #296
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Old 11-20-2009, 01:19 PM   #297
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Which part of that is confusing for you?

No one has been called a bigot for saying they would vote for civil unions in Washington State, and we all know that you know what trolling is.
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:49 PM   #298
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Which part of that is confusing for you?

No one has been called a bigot for saying they would vote for civil unions in Washington State, and we all know that you know what trolling is.
Let's stop with the obfuscating and name calling.

Plenty of times people who have said that they're ok with Civil Unions for gay people instead of Gay Marriage are labeled bigots.

<>
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Old 11-20-2009, 03:54 PM   #299
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Let's stop with the obfuscating and name calling.

Plenty of times people who have said that they're ok with Civil Unions for gay people instead of Gay Marriage are labeled bigots.

<>
No, they're called bigots for the reasons behind not wanting to extend marriage to gays.
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Old 11-20-2009, 04:15 PM   #300
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Silly me thanks for the clarification, benevolent one.


<>

PS

And somebody tell Barney Frank he is all wrong in his approach.



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"Don't call straight people who disagree with you bigots".
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