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Old 11-15-2009, 11:30 AM   #16
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now, i'd be happy to hear some secular arguments against same-sex marriage. can someone create them? AEON?
I think it is impossible to have any argument on any society based discussed that is 100 percent "secular". Eventually, as I mentioned above, the discussion rolls into areas of philosophy and/or theology - which is at the root of all social discussions.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:38 AM   #17
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i still want to know what is it about my relationship (and Melon's relationship) that makes it unworthy of state sanctioning and protections....
I believe I've answered this at least a few times. If I accept the definition that a marriage is between a man and a woman, and I do - then that automatically excludes a marriage between a man and another man or between a woman and another woman. They cannot exist by the very definition of the word, therefore there is nothing to deny or protect.

The discussion that naturally follows is concerning the "why" I accept this definition, which is NOT an extreme position as indicated by current votes and the a the very liberal President, Barack Obama.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:41 AM   #18
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We did get off on the Christian/Biblical tangent for a couple of reasons: 1) much of this discussion has been about the Catholic Church charity work and the city of DC controversy, 2) eventually, when we dig deep enough to determine why we hold certain moral opinions - we will be asked the "source" of our opinions.


so you feel that atheists should be denied civil marriage as well?
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:45 AM   #19
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The conversation about cultural/societal norms and how they spring from religion is definitely an interesting one, but one I really have nothing worthwhile to contribute to, so I'm not going to be able to respond to your post from the last thread, AEON, that was directed to me in response to my own knee-jerk questions.

But I did want to acknowledge your response and thank you for it.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:47 AM   #20
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so you feel that atheists should be denied civil marriage as well?
No. Even though they do not believe it, I still believe their marriage is, at its very core, a spiritual act.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:48 AM   #21
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No. Even though they do not believe it, I still believe their marriage is, at its very core, a spiritual act.


but mine cannot ever be?
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:49 AM   #22
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The conversation about cultural/societal norms and how they spring from religion is definitely an interesting one, but one I really have nothing worthwhile to contribute to, so I'm not going to be able to respond to your post from the last thread, AEON, that was directed to me in response to my own knee-jerk questions.

But I did want to acknowledge your response and thank you for it.
Thank you. Enjoy the rest of your weekend!
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:53 AM   #23
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but mine cannot ever be?
ever be what? A civil marriage? If the laws change/endorse a new definition of marriage - then you will have that.

If you are referring to a "spiritual" act, then I fall in line with Barack Obama when he states that "God is in the mix" during this "union between a man and a woman."
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:54 AM   #24
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Please describe how your definition of marriage, "Two non-related, mentally competent adults who love each other and are willing to enter into the commitment..." - is any different than an ordinary dating relationship?


Only if you can first tell me why your personal definition is superior to mine
I'm too lazy to fix these quotes up properly (damn lazy non-Christians), but I answered your question just fine. I gave my definition. I could give some long-winded answer, couched in oh-so-civilized terms, talking about why a theocratic state should exist when it comes to marriage, giving some apologetic, yet incredibly insulting answer about how I don't really believe that Irvine's relationship is inferior to mine, then bring up some subject that has nothing really to do with the rights of gays and lesbians to have equal access to the Constitution, but I just don't want to.

My definition is superior to yours, AEON, because it is. It doesn't hide behind Jesus, it includes people who love each other, and it answered the damn question. Unlike yours.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:57 AM   #25
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ever be what? A civil marriage? If the laws change/endorse a new definition of marriage - then you will have that.

If you are referring to a "spiritual" act, then I fall in line with Barack Obama when he states that "God is in the mix" during this "union between a man and a woman."

You are so lazy!! You never really give him a real answer. You just quote Obama all the time.

Man up and admit to him and the rest of us that you really do think he is somehow inferior. Maybe we'd all have a little more respect for you if you'd just admit it. Sheesh.
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Old 11-15-2009, 11:58 AM   #26
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No. Even though they do not believe it, I still believe their marriage is, at its very core, a spiritual act.
How can it be, when they themselves are not spiritual?
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:02 PM   #27
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How can it be, when they themselves are not spiritual?
as far as i can tell, marriage is basically a u2 concert - god enters the room whether or not you invited him.
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:22 PM   #28
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You are so lazy!! .
You really think so? I think I've racked up quite a word count the last 2 days, but okay
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:24 PM   #29
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ever be what? A civil marriage? If the laws change/endorse a new definition of marriage - then you will have that.

If you are referring to a "spiritual" act, then I fall in line with Barack Obama when he states that "God is in the mix" during this "union between a man and a woman."
No, this is lazy because you switch from your opinion to, "Well, if the government ever does anything, I guess!"
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Old 11-15-2009, 12:29 PM   #30
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ever be what? A civil marriage? If the laws change/endorse a new definition of marriage - then you will have that.

If you are referring to a "spiritual" act, then I fall in line with Barack Obama when he states that "God is in the mix" during this "union between a man and a woman."


are you surprised, then, when people call the position you've advocated a bigoted one? that because you cannot defend your position in a secular manner, you have to resort to notions of "God" and what may or may have not been said -- itself very shaky theology, as you have pointed out in response to Melon's posts -- and so you are using that which cannot be logically challenged "God says it's so" in order to defend a position that cannot be logically sustained. and subsequently, since bigotry itself defies logic, how can we not arrive at the conclusion that your position is bigoted, most likely because it is rooted in your own professed ignorance?

you have no secular argument, AEON, nor have you tried to make one. doesn't this underscore the fundamental weakness of your position? shouldn't your own experience, your own critical faculties, your own assessment of what's real here and now trump whatever fundamentalist abstractions you're able to concoct when in the company of people who wish to believe the same thing you do? aren't we correct when we say that religion is (as ever) being used as the vehicle by which to justify that which by any other name we would call discrimination and bigotry?
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